Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Neither do I know the exact number of Ukrainians pilot who's being trained in flying the F16

More on this green light to use weapon and ammo against targets in Russia.
Each day yes even each hour Russia is sending artillery, rockets and missile from their side into Ukraine.

So I say Ukraine should have the right to destroy these weapons.

Markus

They have that right and have exercised that right on more than one occasion. But as far as an all out barrage or surgical strike with western weapon systems on Russian soil goes, I don’t think it will be allowed to happen.

Look, a few f16’s or ATACMS on Russia soil doesn’t and will not win a war. What will when the war is good intel, leadership , will to fight and if what Zelensky said is true a 8 to 1 kill ratio.

[mapuc]

Never heard of the words - Low level sabotage



Markus

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

They have that right and have exercised that right on more than one occasion. But as far as an all out barrage or surgical strike with western weapon systems on Russian soil goes, I don’t think it will be allowed to happen.

Look, a few f16’s or ATACMS on Russia soil doesn’t and will not win a war. What will when the war is good intel, leadership , will to fight and if what Zelensky said is true a 8 to 1 kill ratio.

https://ekstrabladet-dk.translate.go..._x_tr_pto=wapp

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

https://ekstrabladet-dk.translate.go..._x_tr_pto=wapp

Markus

If I read the trend with the European weapon systems, Ukraine will get the ok to use in Russian territory.

[Rockstar]

Do let us know when it actually happens.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

If I read the trend with the European weapon systems, Ukraine will get the ok to use in Russian territory.

What about Germany ? They seems very eager to prevent the war in escalating further.

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

What about Germany ? They seems very eager to prevent the war in escalating further.

Markus

Ukraine should have the right to take out Russian military installations with weapons from the West, even if those installations are on Russian territory. French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said so tonight at a joint press conference in Meseberg, Germany. “We support Ukraine, and we don't want escalation. Nothing has changed about that,” Macron said after being asked by a journalist about the issue that has caused fierce debate in recent weeks. Ukraine says it has to fight with one hand tied behind its back by not allowing weapons it gets from its allies to fire on Russian missile installations inside Russia, for example.

The United States in particular does not allow it to do so. But Macron made it clear that as far as he is concerned, that restriction is unnecessary. “How do you explain to the Ukrainians that they have to protect their cities from Russian missile attacks if at the same time we tell them, ‘You cannot hit the sites from where the missiles are launched’? We (Macron and Scholz, ed.) think we should allow them to neutralize military sites from which missiles are fired and from which Ukraine is attacked.” Macron also said that “other targets in Russia and civilian or other military sites in Russia” should still be excluded, however.

[mapuc]

In other words a kind of restricted allowance to hit certain targets from the border and xxx kilometer into Russia.

Markus

[mapuc]

Markus

[Skybird]

Bild reports that a german Patriot was used to shot down 2 Hi8, 1 su34 and 1 su35 over Russian territory. Immediately Berlin and Washington telephoned extremely angry with Kyiv and warned to never do that again, else they would refuse to deliver further ammunitions.


It's clear if Biden and Bubble Olaf accept claimed red lines of Russia, they also have already accepted that Russia will. Win the war, since Russia will mark every aid as off limits that could really endanger its success.


Ukraine is screwed. By Russia - and by its false "friends".

[Reece]

Yeh it does kinda suck!!
Here's your weapons and ammo, just don't use them on Russians!

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Bild reports that a german Patriot was used to shot down 2 Hi8, 1 su34 and 1 su35 over Russian territory. Immediately Berlin and Washington telephoned extremely angry with Kyiv and warned to never do that again, else they would refuse to deliver further ammunitions.


It's clear if Biden and Bubble Olaf accept claimed red lines of Russia, they also have already accepted that Russia will. Win the war, since Russia will mark every aid as off limits that could really endanger its success.


Ukraine is screwed. By Russia - and by its false "friends".

First off Patriots systems are not Ukraine’s they’re ours I paid for them. The Patriot is a defense system with a maximum effective range of 99 miles depending on missile used. There is absolutely no way in hell we would ever permit the worlds most advanced systems get that close to the frontline just on the off chance they MIGHT have something to shoot at. They’d be reduced to a smoldering pile of junk.

Similar can be said of ATACMS unless Russians are stupid enough to place their supply depots and staging areas within range of ATACMS they will be of little use to anyone with or without Macrons blessing.

Obviously even bubble Olaf knows that.

Arguing over permission. Should be arguing over why would anyone be stupid enough to place those systems so close to the Russian border just to get in range of something that’s not there.

[Skybird]

Nonsense. These weapons are not lended, but given. The battery that shot down the four mentioned targets in Russina air space near Ukrainian border, was provided by Germany. But when Germany gave it to Ukraine, it was no longer ours (we paid for it - to you, but we handed them over, to them, so they are not ours anymore). These limitations and attempts to bind them their hands on their back, is serving the Rus sian interest.



And btw, the Suchois are carrying those missiles and cruise missiles that devastate ground targets in Ukraine, and civilian targets. They lob these missiles from the safety of Russian air space into Ukraine, claiming immunity that way - immunity that you want to grant them. Ukrainians die for this strange conception of Western smarties.



Thats quite cyncial what you say.



One of the three US-given Patriot batteries btw already has been significantly reduced by Russian attacks.



To cover Ukraine, so said a comment in German, they would need practically all patriot systems that are globally in existence - and 8x as many missiles for it as Raytheon produces in one year. THAT is how dire their situation is.



Nothing in the Western case for Ukraine adds together constructively, nothing. Its all minimalistic piecework - to give the West an alibi for claiming "at least we tried".



You cant fight and win a war with this idiotic mindset that constantly tries to not provoke an enemy who has proven to not not needing getting provoked at all to escalate whenever he likes, and whose war interest you allow to dictate to you your own submissive reactions, played out by his rule book.



To pay for the war in Ukraine now to make sure Ukraine wins, comes cheaper for all of us, Europe and the US alike, if we must not pay for the next war after that, devastating our own countries. That would cost us factors more.



Unfortunately this does not correct the unsatisfying situation of lakcing defence propuciton capacity, and wehre thes ear beignb adressed the chnage snoit becoming visiible before a couple of years more fork now on. But I have serious doubts that the need for a much higher military production really is understood in Western capitals, and especially in Berlin, but it is not just a German failure. The adapted ambitions and plans are still nothing but pathetic.



Which leads me to my conclusion that we in Europe will pay a terrible price for our indifferent handling of the ukraine crisis and the managing of our reaction to it. The consequences of our failures today will necessarily find us in the future. And we wont be able to avoid them.

[mapuc]

Yes the battery is given, what about the missiles aren't they on lend-basis and therefore still own by Germany and/or USA ??

I say they should be allowed to hit targets who is a threat to Ukraine, even if it means hitting targets miles inside Russia.

"First off Patriots systems are not Ukraine’s they’re ours I paid for them."

No doubt that there other American saying almost the same except they may be saying:
Let Ukraine use them against air targets inside Russia.

By the way-Denmark have given Ukraine full green light to use their weapons against targets in Russia-Which means Ukraine can use the Artillery given by Denmark against Russian targets inside Russia.

Markus

[mapuc]

Markus