Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2 - Page 82

mapuc · 10-01-23, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Wowhwowhwowh - German media report London discusses with Ukriane the sending of milutary trainers and advisors into Ukraine.

Technically that means NATO troops in a foreign country that is at war. Openly, not hidden.

Also, here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ps-to-ukraine/

1. They are also sending some of their fleet to the Black Sea to protect commercial grain transport.

2. In todays update with Denys he said that Russia once again had hit and destroyed a cargo train loaded with tanks and other vehicles.

This made me wonder-Does they not have some kind of aircover over this area-It's not first time Russia have sent glider bombs towards these trains.

Markus

Skybird · 10-01-23, 10:44 AM

Its well established knowledge that they have way too few air defences.
If the electricity gets taken out, Ukraine also cannot maintain military production. They already could not protect the powergrid last winter, only repair ir as quick as they can.

Its Western policy to not gove Ukraine what it needs in sufficient quantities. In parts, that is by not wanting to do so, in parts because one cannot give what one does not have oneself.

Also, you mention glide bombs. I think there is no air defence against a falling/gliding bomb... Except shooting down the carrier before it releases.

mapuc · 10-01-23, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Its well established knowledge that they have way too few air defences.
If the electricity gets taken out, Ukraine also cannot maintain military production. They already could not protect the powergrid last winter, only repair ir as quick as they can.

Its Western policy to not gove Ukraine what it needs in sufficient quantities. In parts, that is by not wanting to do so, in parts because one cannot give what one does not have oneself.

Also, you mention glide bombs. I think there is no air defence against a falling/gliding bomb... Except shooting down the carrier before it releases.

Priority Since it's one of Russia's main goal to destroy Ukrainians logistic hub, one would imagine they had some kind of aircover in these areas.
What do I know-I'm not a military strategist. I only write what I would go after.

Markus

Skybird · 10-01-23, 11:39 AM

They would need hundreds of longe rran ge missile-based air defences. They got some 30 (counting missile platform air defence, add the Tunguska and Gepard Flak tanks whith their limited range).

Most of there air defences already focus on protecting industrial and infrastructure hotspots, thats why their troops in the field have so little protection.

They simply do not have enough of anything.

------------------

Latest developments in the US regadsing the state budget and fighting over a shutdown (which many Republicans desperately want to spread chaos of which they hope they would benefit), are most worrying for Ukraine. While Europe already gives more financial aid than the US now and so far roughly as many wepaons as the US did, The uS nevertheless are a major pillar of support, and if they stoip to be that, than things will turn zugly. Europe is especially in the military realm not capable to compensate for a total American retreat from support for Ukraine. But right that US dropout is a very realistic possible scenario now.

mapuc · 10-01-23, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Latest developments in the US regadsing the state budget and fighting over a shutdown (which many Republicans desperately want to spread chaos of which they hope they would benefit), are most worrying for Ukraine. While Europe already gives more financial aid than the US now and so far roughly as many wepaons as the US did, The uS nevertheless are a major pillar of support, and if they stoip to be that, than things will turn zugly. Europe is especially in the military realm not capable to compensate for a total American retreat from support for Ukraine. But right that US dropout is a very realistic possible scenario now.

Yes they have come to some agreement in the house of representatives which is for the next 45 days and in this agreement Ukraine isn't there on the paper.

Europe going solo..You said that they can't compensate for an American retreat-This would mean that Europe will send instructors and knowhow to Ukraine so they can produce these weapons by them self.

Around in Europe old ammo factory is being reopened. Example one in Denmark is being reopened it was last year in May they opened it. It will take about 2 years before it is up and running fully.

Markus

Skybird · 10-01-23, 12:02 PM

Europe has a counterfeit money like the US so will never run short in supply. The financial aid Europe can do alone (and I think it should, its OUR problem, not so much America's), if only it would want that. But the military hardware deliveries of the US are close to 50% of the totla aid Ukriane gets, and if these do not continue that is a burden Europe cannot compensate for simply because it does not have that material.

I hope the material support continues, and Europe take sover the Americjna fiscal aid as well, maybe that could be a compromise for at least some moderate Republicans. The Trumpists of course will not even accept that.

tonschk · 10-01-23, 12:29 PM

Seymour Hersh: “Zelensky’s battered army no longer has any chance of a victory”

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/09/2...-of-a-victory/

Next Tuesday will be the anniversary of the Biden administration’s destruction of three of the four pipelines of Nord Stream 1 and 2. There is more I have to say about it, but it will have to wait. Why? Because the war between Russia and Ukraine, with the White House continuing to reject any talk of a ceasefire, is at a turning point, writes Seymour Hersh, a famous American investigative journalist.

There are significant elements in the American intelligence community, relying on field reports and technical intelligence, who believe that the demoralized Ukraine army has given up on the possibility of overcoming the heavily mined three-tier Russian defense lines and taking the war to Crimea and the four oblasts seized and annexed by Russia.

The reality is that Volodymyr Zelensky’s battered army no longer has any chance of a victory.

mapuc · 10-01-23, 12:30 PM

We may not have the material to produce what is needed in the war in Ukraine, but we could send the knowhow to Ukraine, so they can produce war material them self.

This is going to take years and Ukraine doesn't have years as time is also against them too.

In fact time is more on Russian side then Ukraines side.

Markus

Jimbuna · 10-01-23, 12:45 PM

mapuc · 10-01-23, 12:54 PM

It seems like the war is also being fought on YT.
No doubt that these who has hacked his channel is pro-Russian

Markus

Jimbuna · 10-01-23, 12:57 PM

No surprises there then.

Jimbuna · 10-01-23, 01:04 PM

Putin's lap dog issues WW3 warning and accuses Britain of plot to put troops in Ukraine

Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev, now Putin's number two on the Kremlin's powerful security council, said British soldiers would become targets if they began training Volodymyr Zelensky's warriors on Ukrainian soil.

Defence Secretary Grant Shapps revealed that he had held talks with Army leaders about shifting an official British-led training programme "into Ukraine".

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak insisted Mr Shapps meant the training would take after the war in Ukraine .

But the Kremlin seized on the confusion, with Medvedev warning Europe's biggest land war since 1945 could escalate even further and spiral into World War 3.

He posted on Telegram: "One newly minted cretin - the British Minister of Defence - decided to transfer British training courses for Ukrainian soldiers to the territory of Ukraine itself.

"That is, turn your instructors into legal targets for our Armed Forces, knowing full well that they will be mercilessly destroyed.

"And no longer as mercenaries, but precisely as British NATO specialists."

Medvedev, who has repeatedly warned of nuclear war, said Mr Shapps was "actively pushing us towards a Third World War."

Mr Sunak immediately clarified Mr Shapp's comments, insisting that British troops would not be deployed to Ukraine while the bloodshed continued.

He said Britain has been training Kyiv's troops "for a long time".
The Prime Minister said: "What the Defence Secretary was saying was that it might well be possible one day in the future for us to do some of that training in Ukraine.

"But that's something for the long term, not the here and now, there are no British soldiers that will be sent to fight in the current conflict. That's not what's happening. What we are doing is training Ukrainians. We're doing that here in the UK."

Former Defence Secretary Ben Wallace first floated the idea of Britain deploying troops to Ukraine in July.

He said it was "perfectly legitimate and possible" more soldiers will be sent to train Ukrainian troops in a rebooted Op Orbital.

In 2015, British troops were sent to Ukraine to train Kyiv's forces after the Russian assault in the Donbas region.

They trained around 22,000 personnel during the seven year operation.

Mr Shapps visited a military base on Salisbury Plain on Friday where he was briefed by General Sir Patrick Sanders, Chief of the General Staff, and other senior figures.

He said: "I was talking about eventually getting the training brought closer and actually into Ukraine as well.

"Particularly in the west of the country, I think the opportunity now is to bring more things in country, and not just training. We're seeing BAE, for example, move into manufacturing in country.

"I'm keen to see other British companies do their bit as well by doing the same thing."
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...&ei=20#image=1

Skybird · 10-01-23, 05:35 PM

Uncomfortable truths.

https://www-focus-de.translate.goog/..._x_tr_pto=wapp

The numbers from Russia and their budget plan tells that Russia plans for a mutiple years long war now. So much for those Western doves thinking this will come to an end in negotiations. It won't. Intensity will drop a bit, but the war will linger on and on and on. Ukraine will slowly bleed out, its economy, its infrastructure, and demographically. And sooner or later every human psyche will break if murderous stress lasts on and on.

Does reconstruction make sense when it does not get militarily protected? Thats what the West ust ask itself, and it also must ask what consequenbces it wills to draw from this. Europe still refuses to switch to war production, its unbelievable. The Russians are up and running. And I predict they can maintain it. Their economic collapse has been forecasted now so often that by now if all these announcements would have become true it would have been enough to end a dozen of wars.

Jimbuna · 10-02-23, 06:11 AM

Jimbuna · 10-02-23, 06:32 AM

10-01-23, 10:44 AM	#1217
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,714 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Its well established knowledge that they have way too few air defences. If the electricity gets taken out, Ukraine also cannot maintain military production. They already could not protect the powergrid last winter, only repair ir as quick as they can. Its Western policy to not gove Ukraine what it needs in sufficient quantities. In parts, that is by not wanting to do so, in parts because one cannot give what one does not have oneself. Also, you mention glide bombs. I think there is no air defence against a falling/gliding bomb... Except shooting down the carrier before it releases. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-01-23, 11:39 AM	#1219
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,714 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	They would need hundreds of longe rran ge missile-based air defences. They got some 30 (counting missile platform air defence, add the Tunguska and Gepard Flak tanks whith their limited range). Most of there air defences already focus on protecting industrial and infrastructure hotspots, thats why their troops in the field have so little protection. They simply do not have enough of anything. ------------------ Latest developments in the US regadsing the state budget and fighting over a shutdown (which many Republicans desperately want to spread chaos of which they hope they would benefit), are most worrying for Ukraine. While Europe already gives more financial aid than the US now and so far roughly as many wepaons as the US did, The uS nevertheless are a major pillar of support, and if they stoip to be that, than things will turn zugly. Europe is especially in the military realm not capable to compensate for a total American retreat from support for Ukraine. But right that US dropout is a very realistic possible scenario now. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-01-23, 12:02 PM	#1221
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,714 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Europe has a counterfeit money like the US so will never run short in supply. The financial aid Europe can do alone (and I think it should, its OUR problem, not so much America's), if only it would want that. But the military hardware deliveries of the US are close to 50% of the totla aid Ukriane gets, and if these do not continue that is a burden Europe cannot compensate for simply because it does not have that material. I hope the material support continues, and Europe take sover the Americjna fiscal aid as well, maybe that could be a compromise for at least some moderate Republicans. The Trumpists of course will not even accept that. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-01-23, 12:29 PM	#1222
tonschk Admiral Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,200 Downloads: 172 Uploads: 0	Seymour Hersh: “Zelensky’s battered army no longer has any chance of a victory” https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/09/2...-of-a-victory/ Next Tuesday will be the anniversary of the Biden administration’s destruction of three of the four pipelines of Nord Stream 1 and 2. There is more I have to say about it, but it will have to wait. Why? Because the war between Russia and Ukraine, with the White House continuing to reject any talk of a ceasefire, is at a turning point, writes Seymour Hersh, a famous American investigative journalist. There are significant elements in the American intelligence community, relying on field reports and technical intelligence, who believe that the demoralized Ukraine army has given up on the possibility of overcoming the heavily mined three-tier Russian defense lines and taking the war to Crimea and the four oblasts seized and annexed by Russia. The reality is that Volodymyr Zelensky’s battered army no longer has any chance of a victory. __________________ What we do in life echoes in Eternity

10-01-23, 12:30 PM	#1223
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,559 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	We may not have the material to produce what is needed in the war in Ukraine, but we could send the knowhow to Ukraine, so they can produce war material them self. This is going to take years and Ukraine doesn't have years as time is also against them too. In fact time is more on Russian side then Ukraines side. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

10-01-23, 12:45 PM	#1224
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,918 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-01-23, 12:54 PM	#1225
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,559 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	It seems like the war is also being fought on YT. No doubt that these who has hacked his channel is pro-Russian Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

10-01-23, 12:57 PM	#1226
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,918 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	No surprises there then. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-01-23, 01:04 PM	#1227
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,918 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Putin's lap dog issues WW3 warning and accuses Britain of plot to put troops in Ukraine Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev, now Putin's number two on the Kremlin's powerful security council, said British soldiers would become targets if they began training Volodymyr Zelensky's warriors on Ukrainian soil. Defence Secretary Grant Shapps revealed that he had held talks with Army leaders about shifting an official British-led training programme "into Ukraine". Prime Minister Rishi Sunak insisted Mr Shapps meant the training would take after the war in Ukraine . But the Kremlin seized on the confusion, with Medvedev warning Europe's biggest land war since 1945 could escalate even further and spiral into World War 3. He posted on Telegram: "One newly minted cretin - the British Minister of Defence - decided to transfer British training courses for Ukrainian soldiers to the territory of Ukraine itself. "That is, turn your instructors into legal targets for our Armed Forces, knowing full well that they will be mercilessly destroyed. "And no longer as mercenaries, but precisely as British NATO specialists." Medvedev, who has repeatedly warned of nuclear war, said Mr Shapps was "actively pushing us towards a Third World War." Mr Sunak immediately clarified Mr Shapp's comments, insisting that British troops would not be deployed to Ukraine while the bloodshed continued. He said Britain has been training Kyiv's troops "for a long time". The Prime Minister said: "What the Defence Secretary was saying was that it might well be possible one day in the future for us to do some of that training in Ukraine. "But that's something for the long term, not the here and now, there are no British soldiers that will be sent to fight in the current conflict. That's not what's happening. What we are doing is training Ukrainians. We're doing that here in the UK." Former Defence Secretary Ben Wallace first floated the idea of Britain deploying troops to Ukraine in July. He said it was "perfectly legitimate and possible" more soldiers will be sent to train Ukrainian troops in a rebooted Op Orbital. In 2015, British troops were sent to Ukraine to train Kyiv's forces after the Russian assault in the Donbas region. They trained around 22,000 personnel during the seven year operation. Mr Shapps visited a military base on Salisbury Plain on Friday where he was briefed by General Sir Patrick Sanders, Chief of the General Staff, and other senior figures. He said: "I was talking about eventually getting the training brought closer and actually into Ukraine as well. "Particularly in the west of the country, I think the opportunity now is to bring more things in country, and not just training. We're seeing BAE, for example, move into manufacturing in country. "I'm keen to see other British companies do their bit as well by doing the same thing." https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...&ei=20#image=1 __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-01-23, 05:35 PM	#1228
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,714 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Uncomfortable truths. https://www-focus-de.translate.goog/..._x_tr_pto=wapp The numbers from Russia and their budget plan tells that Russia plans for a mutiple years long war now. So much for those Western doves thinking this will come to an end in negotiations. It won't. Intensity will drop a bit, but the war will linger on and on and on. Ukraine will slowly bleed out, its economy, its infrastructure, and demographically. And sooner or later every human psyche will break if murderous stress lasts on and on. Does reconstruction make sense when it does not get militarily protected? Thats what the West ust ask itself, and it also must ask what consequenbces it wills to draw from this. Europe still refuses to switch to war production, its unbelievable. The Russians are up and running. And I predict they can maintain it. Their economic collapse has been forecasted now so often that by now if all these announcements would have become true it would have been enough to end a dozen of wars. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-02-23, 06:11 AM	#1229
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,918 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

10-02-23, 06:32 AM	#1230
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,918 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!