[Politics] Who was the IDF aiming at ?

[August]

Originally Posted by Smaragdadler

"...We've received e-mails from him a few days ago and ..."

So there is no real chance to check if retired Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie says the truth or not. :hmm:

Hey, maybe he lied. Maybe the Jews deliberately targeted a harmless UN base because they wanted to kill UN soldiers and infuriate the UN, the Europeans and the Chinese in one fell swoop. Maybe this Canadian General is in reality an agent for the Bush administration and/or the IDF. I don't know, i'm just reporting what i've read about it.

[August]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Furthermore, one has to wonder what "defense" is involved when Israel bombed a civvie power plant and an airport.

The airport was being used to bring in arms shipments from Iran.
The power plant was destroyed to deny Hez the use of electricity. We did the same thing in Desert Storm.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

It didn't happen that way. Think of it like this - Armed man is minding own business, Armed thugs moved in next door to his neigbors house and the neighbor let it happen because he felt sympathy for them.

Try, the armed thugs weren't thugs until armed man invaded their house in the name of his security. At that point, a few of those guys decided to become thugs to drive the armed man out. It was hard to drive the man out because they only had pistols and the man had both an AK-47 and had body armor complete with thermal imaging, laser rangefinding...etc. The armed man eventually withdrew, after a very, very long time.

Armed thugs decide they hate armed man because armed man is sitting on land armed thugs like and kidnap son of Armed man to try and get armed man to leave.

When scaled down to a house, that "son" (low-ranking Israeli soldiers) is about the size of a pet rat. OK, they kidnapped the pet rat.

Armed thugs in neighbors house, shoot rockets at armed man, killing a daughter.

Oh no, they killed the pet goldfish which I placed in plain view of the window!!!

Armed man fires back desperately when he can see armed thugs.

Actually, it is more like he's just firing off RPGs in the general direction of the thug's house, in apathy of the fact there are only 2 thugs in that house that houses 100.

Armed thugs kidnap another armed mans son for the second time.

Considering armed are already shooting back, what's so wrong with that. And again, when scaled against the nation, a soldier or two is about the size of a pet rat.

Let's not forget, somewhere about this time, the armed man was indeed kidnapping the thugs' sons (the Hamas leadership, which is clearly more valuable than a couple of privates) as a counter. Desperate is not how I would describe the armed man's overall position.

Armed man gets ticked off at kidnapping and starts coming over to kill armed thugs who are hurting his family.

Yet his first shots were made with a rocket launcher, against the garage (airport) and electrical generator (power plant). How this is going to hurt the armed thugs more than the neutrals in the house is unknown.

Armed man accidently kills neighbors daughter while killing armed thugs who are neighbors friends.

Actually, the armed man just killed the plainscloth cop that was there (say what you might want about the UN, but UN peacekeepers the closest to an impartial cop of the world: the US military despite its capabilities is not a cop, but a private security company in the employ of the US and ultimately serving US interests.)

[August]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

When scaled down to a house, that "son" (low-ranking Israeli soldiers) is about the size of a pet rat. OK, they kidnapped the pet rat.

Geez man, I know it's only a silly comparison game but did you just call that poor young man "a pet rat"?

Oh no, they killed the pet goldfish which I placed in plain view of the window!!!

Obviously she asked for it eh?

[scandium]

Originally Posted by August

Geez man, I know it's only a silly comparison game but did you just call that poor young man "a pet rat"?

About sums up how Israel seems to regard them. Hezbollah offered a prisoner exchange. Its been what, 2 weeks now? If Israel gave a rat's @ss about them then they could have spent the last 2 weeks negotiating with the Lebanese PM on a joint Israeli-Lebanese search and rescue mission in conjunction with international cooperation/assistance. They could have at least tried this route, and they have done prisoner exchanges before so this would not set a precedent.

Instead, they decided to destroy the country, weaken and destabalize the democratic Lebanese government, destroy the Lebanese army which is the country's only hope of providing the internal security Israel demands, and killing UN Observers and thereby further poising the International community against them and making any kind of international peace keeping force or cooperation less likely (given that nobody is going to commit their troops to becoming target practice for th IDF).

And where are these captured soldiers now? That issue has disappeared off the front page. Beyond servering as pawns and a convenient pretext for destroying Lebanon, I doubt the Israeli government cared less to begin with - not to judge by their actions anyway.

I mean, if someone kidnapped someone I cared about, I wouldn't react by blowing up their house and killing their family - not if I wanted this person I cared back alive, anyway.

[Skybird]

Yes, it all is about two kidnappings only.

And no, enemy fighters crawling over and beside a UN post, abusing it for cover and hpoping to be untouchable, gathering intel ony my troops movement and maybe even firing at my men and killing them, are no reason to take them under fire.

I would love to live int he world some of you guys have on your minds. Must be an extremely reasonable, well-ordered, peaceful and enjoyable place. but it is not the world that I happen to live in, unfortunately. So it goes. but I find it deeply disturbing how willingly some people accept to expect Israelis letting themselves killed at every moment in their own homes and country on and on - and never, ever going after those who attack them. I find it queer and almost perverse that Hezbollah is not allowed to be fought against, because the West and Lebanon and the UN has allowed it to sink that deep into civilian infrastructures - intentionally - that now it cannot be fought against without causing massive civilian damage. I find it disgusting that Israel is blamed, where it is Hezbollah to be blamed for putting civilian lifes at risk intentionaly, in large quantities, just to score a media bonus each time the Israelis fire at Hezbollah. One must be blind, cynical and braindead not to see the qualititave differences in both parties mindsets here.

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222064.stm

The air attacks have copied the tactics of the US air force in both Gulf Wars but have not been followed up with the other half of the so-called "Powell doctrine" - the massive use of forces on the ground. (...) Indeed, an example of the limitations of air power came in an incident filmed by the BBC in Beirut the other day. The Israeli air force destroyed two trucks carrying water-drilling rigs, presumably thinking they were rocket launchers.

Indeed, I am waiting for the start of a large ground operation since days now, and wonder why they hesitate so long. Please no one tell me that they seriously believe that airpower alone could do the trick.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by August

Geez man, I know it's only a silly comparison game but did you just call that poor young man "a pet rat"?

While not meaning to denigrate the sacrifice of those guys, if you scale down entire nations (even small nations like Israel and Lebanon) to the size of houses and families, even a very large household with a hundred people in it, you simply cannot analogize the relative importance of even a platoon of run-of-the-mill civvies or soldiers to something like a "son" or "daughter". A President, minister or General might be a different matter, for those are relatively vital cogs in a nation, but even several run of the mill corporal or white-collar worker simply ain't it. A big hole is not going to happen in Israel society because they died, certainly nothing comparable to the loss of a son within a family. Call me cold but there it is. In terms of influence to society - men are mostly decisively not equal within a nation.

By the way, as scandium suggested, if Israel really rates those civvies and IDF troops equal to "sons" and "daughters" (and we are supposed to think Israel is human and sane) ... well, most families do not put their sons and daughters within range of some thugs' rockets - they may or may not try to deal with the rockets but before that they move their kids and loved ones out of danger. When they get kidnapped, they are more likely to grovel and negotiate than start launching rockets in the general direction of where they think their sons are, which is another reason why the "son" and "daughter" analogy is invalid in this situation.

BTW, ethically speaking, while the rocket attacks might be something else, snatching a few border guards simply is not very reprehensible considering their was a border conflict on.

[Skybird]

There is no border conflict. There is a conflict over the existence of whole Israel itself.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

There is no border conflict. There is a conflict over the existence of whole Israel itself.

Exactly. A fact which some people here are doing their best to dismiss.

[micky1up]

look the whole thing has been engineered by iran and syria and the reporting has been so bias by the bbc and others that you dont really get news of the some 2000 rockets fired into isreal also the leboneese goverment where told by the UN when israel left the lebanon to stop the terroists provoking israel and they have totally failed to do so the terroist themselve hide amongst the civilians on purpose to create the deaths of civilians this and the bias reporting works in their favour and mugs like the people critising israel fall for the propogander the terroist count on this happening and it done by design in vietnam the US won every major battle but lost the PR war the terroist know that public opinion matters and can be a usefull ally in conflicts such as this use your brains see through the bias reporting and propogander , you cant help civilian casualties they happen in every battle and every war dont discount the economic side either the terroist know that conflicts here raise oil prices the terroist are smart smarter than the ANTi war lobby who fall hook line and sinker to the propogander and bias reporting

[Skybird]

Or the return button after each sentence. Mickey, I remember vaguely that some years ago you have indicated why you do not use punctuation marks. I knew a man who had the same habit. He used the return button after each finished sentence instead, like if he was taking a breath after each spoken sentence in conversation.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Try, the armed thugs weren't thugs until armed man invaded their house in the name of his security. At that point, a few of those guys decided to become thugs to drive the armed man out. It was hard to drive the man out because they only had pistols and the man had both an AK-47 and had body armor complete with thermal imaging, laser rangefinding...etc. The armed man eventually withdrew, after a very, very long time.

When scaled down to a house, that "son" (low-ranking Israeli soldiers) is about the size of a pet rat. OK, they kidnapped the pet rat.

Oh no, they killed the pet goldfish which I placed in plain view of the window!!!

Actually, it is more like he's just firing off RPGs in the general direction of the thug's house, in apathy of the fact there are only 2 thugs in that house that houses 100.

Considering armed are already shooting back, what's so wrong with that. And again, when scaled against the nation, a soldier or two is about the size of a pet rat.

Let's not forget, somewhere about this time, the armed man was indeed kidnapping the thugs' sons (the Hamas leadership, which is clearly more valuable than a couple of privates) as a counter. Desperate is not how I would describe the armed man's overall position.

Yet his first shots were made with a rocket launcher, against the garage (airport) and electrical generator (power plant). How this is going to hurt the armed thugs more than the neutrals in the house is unknown.

Actually, the armed man just killed the plainscloth cop that was there (say what you might want about the UN, but UN peacekeepers the closest to an impartial cop of the world: the US military despite its capabilities is not a cop, but a private security company in the employ of the US and ultimately serving US interests.)

Ahh, is this Kazuaki Shimazaki II dreamworld? Isreal is the one who has always been on the defensive.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

If an action is wrong under the scenario, then it is wrong no matter who the executor of the action was. If attacking a UN post for the ostensible purpose of protecting Operational Security of your side is an acceptable action for Israel, it should also be so for Hezbollah, and vice versa. One can have this objectivity while finding actions such as the purposeful killing of woman and children reprehensible.

Furthermore, one has to wonder what "defense" is involved when Israel bombed a civvie power plant and an airport.

I'm a big evil criminal who has taken your whole family hostage, and I'm armed with a gun. You can ambush me. Instead, because you think your cause of killing me is just, you come up to me and my vast weapons superiority. Is this just or stupid?

When the Soviets were in Afghanistan, would they be justified in calling the Mujahadeen cowards and that they should stand up and face Soviet artillery because they think their cause is just?

Ding ding ding! Wrong answer again! Civilians are always a casualty of war. The real blame here goes to Lebanon for not taking care of its population as a good government is supposed to do. They left those people there in an effort to make a human shield.

It is Isreals right to defend itself from barbarian terrorists regardless the circumstances, so even though you may not like it, it is not a wrong. It is their duty. It is just an unfortunate side effect that can't be avoided.

-S

[Skybird]

In this article in today's New York times, people of Lebanon criticise the Israeli strikes. However, they not only express their despair, but also their anger and rage for Hezbollah intentionally moving into civilian areas to launch it's missiles, intentionally moving into Christian areas - and even killing local residents that try to flee from the launching sites, which I rate as a clear signal that Hezbollah WANTS civilian casualties so that it can point fingers at the Israelis. Remember, in the understanding of Islam, the death of Muhammedans in that way is martyrdom, and the death of infidels is a just cause. Don't measure Hezbollah by Western standards. Measure it by what a dog sometimes leaves behind.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/wo...gewanted=print