Graf Zeppelin wreck found!

[Drebbel]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry!

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

Originally Posted by Drebbel

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

No its not. Its just respectless against all the german sailors/soldiers who died... german soldier=nazi... oooof course...

we dont need to discuss the regime, no way... but to call everything whats german (from this time of course) nazi makes me really pi$$y...

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

No its not. Its just respectless against all the german sailors/soldiers who died... german soldier=nazi... oooof course...

we dont need to discuss the regime, no way... but to call everything whats german (from this time of course) nazi makes me really pi$$y...

Agreed
The Kreigsmarine were the least political branch of the German armed forces too
Very similair to the Royal Navy - they respect their traditions and heritage more than the oaf at the head of the country - Old skool

[Drebbel]

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

[KL Seestern]

Yes, I agree there's nothing wrong with the phrase 'Nazi aircraft carrier': as a designation of the ship itself, it's technically quite correct. It was built (or mostly built) at the behest of the Nazi government in order to form part of the Nazi military machine. As Drebbel says, the phrase doesn't imply anything about the political views of the crew members.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Drebbel

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I don't know why calling a German vessel in WWII a "Nazi" vessel should make anyone angry, it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells. It's just common usage of the term.

just my opinion,
Neal

Maybe germans are just very sensitive to the word NAZI... yup, thats it... in the german forums is the same discussion because of a familiar thread... the most people over there agree and cant read this "NAZI Ship, NAZI Submarine, NAZI, Helmet, NAZI Shellcase, NAZI anything" - anymore...

Of course it was a "Nazi-Ship" because it was build for the regime... but it could be written a bit more "respectful" like "Kriegsmarine Ship found" etc...

what ever...

@Neal

it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells.

Ok, my english is poor and maybe ive got it wrong, if so - sorry.

but: its absolutely not nessecary to get ironic... i could get ironic too and talking about how honorable it was to drop little boy and kill ah sorry "create" a bit collateral damage - to safe lifes of course...
but i dont, because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides... at least i hope everyone does...

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

but: its absolutely not nessecary to get ironic... i could get ironic too and talking about how honorable it was to drop little boy and kill ah sorry "create" a bit collateral damage - to safe lifes of course...
but i dont, because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides... at least i hope everyone does...

yes, but we're not talking about all sides, just Nazis.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I don't know why calling a German vessel in WWII a "Nazi" vessel should make anyone angry, it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells. It's just common usage of the term.

just my opinion,
Neal

I wish people would grow up and move on the war ended 60 odd years ago. I agree with Neal.

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

WW2 may have ended 60 years ago, but nazism is pretty much alive today. And I can't blame people for not wanting their vets to be linked with a regime who killed millions of innocents, just because people don't want to stop making generalizations.

See, there were nazis in the german armed forces during WW2. There were those who liked Hitler, there were those who didn't. Not all of them were nazis, not all of them weren't.

Of course in certain parts of the german armed forces of the time almost everyone was a nazi. Waffen-SS, for instance. But the average sailor, soldier or pilot simply wasn't more a nazi than a current US soldier can be republican.

Soldiers fight for their life, for their families' safety, for their friend's lifes and for their country. In that order. There are cases where ideology is a main instance, but on average, that goes way way way behind the avobe-mentioned preferences.

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

aboard nazi-built u-boats...not nazi u-boats.


Just my .02$$.

[Safe-Keeper]

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

Exactly. American ships aren't "Republican/Democratic ships", German ships never were "Nazi ships".

[Drebbel]

because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides

I acknoledge their sorrow and pain. But should we really respect what they did ? Why ?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by RAM

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

You're right, having a Republican President does not make a US soldier "an ultra-republican believer", but it still makes him a US soldier. The German soldier and sailor may not have been a Nazi, he may have even been doing this against his will, but he was sure doing a good job of it. I have nothing against German war vets, but I also don't believe in whitewashing the past. If someone says something about a "Nazi U-boat" or a "Nazi soldier", I understand what he means.

No offense. I can understand why German sons and grandsons of German military may feel differently. I'm not trying to change your opinion

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

You're right, having a Republican President does not make a US soldier "an ultra-republican believer", but it still makes him a US soldier. The German soldier and sailor may not have been a Nazi, he may have even been doing this against his will, but he was sure doing a good job of it.

Neal I really don't follow you here, but it might be the language barrier.

Let me see, you think (as I do) that US soldiers being deployed overseas today doesn't mean that they are republicans, and that they are US soldiers, not republican soldiers. So far ,so good.

But, while that holds true for US soldiers it doesn't apply to WW2 german soldiers?. A German soldier was a NAZI soldier, not a German soldier?.


Have to disagree with you here. Some german soldiers deployed during WW2 were Nazis, but the average soldier was a GERMAN soldier, not a Nazi one.



Another thing I'd like to mention:

it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells.

I guess that US Navy men who were drowning japanese sailors in the pacific and SRA zone were better because they let them drown in "hot" waters?...(we won't mention sharks here).

U-boat sailors were not more dis-honourable for sinking merchant ships in the atlantic than what US sailors doing the same in the Far East could be, neal. They all played the same game. It's called "war" and it's hell, and you can hardly blame those who played a part on it...but yet if you do, place that blame on ALL those who did similar things, not only on a minority, and just because they lost the war.

Please, make up your mind, either all submarine sailors of WW2 which conducted anti-merchant operations were dis-honourable, or they all were honourable. But you can't have the "Kriegsmarine ones weren't, but US ones were" when both navy's submarine forces conducted pretty similar submarine offensives on other merchant navies during the war.

In short, no two-standards ,please, Neal...

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by RAM

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

WW2 may have ended 60 years ago, but nazism is pretty much alive today. And I can't blame people for not wanting their vets to be linked with a regime who killed millions of innocents, just because people don't want to stop making generalizations.

See, there were nazis in the german armed forces during WW2. There were those who liked Hitler, there were those who didn't. Not all of them were nazis, not all of them weren't.

Of course in certain parts of the german armed forces of the time almost everyone was a nazi. Waffen-SS, for instance. But the average sailor, soldier or pilot simply wasn't more a nazi than a current US soldier can be republican.

Soldiers fight for their life, for their families' safety, for their friend's lifes and for their country. In that order. There are cases where ideology is a main instance, but on average, that goes way way way behind the avobe-mentioned preferences.

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

aboard nazi-built u-boats...not nazi u-boats.


Just my .02$$.

Well put RAM. I agree totally.