LWAMI4: Helos, Aircraft, and Submarines

goldorak · 07-20-06, 06:40 AM

Edit : The issue (non detectability of masts by surface ships) is not to be considered a bug.
case closed.

DivingWind · 07-20-06, 07:58 AM

Sounds great! Keep up the good work!

Phullbrick · 07-20-06, 07:59 AM

too bad

I remember I read a couple of days ago that some recent furtive frigates can get radar profils as low as a submarine with all its mats raised, too bad we have this bug here which prevent us from doing like in real. Plus, this is one of the OHP role (asw) which can't be done : I'm sure less submarine would go to surface to fire sam if they knew the OHP could already detect them when they are at PD looking above water before they surface.

OneShot · 07-20-06, 10:00 AM

No offense, but technically the non detecting of masts is not a bug. Masts are simply not detectable objects ... at most you can call this an oversight or lack of a feature. If the game would be set up so masts are detectable objects and it doesn't work ... then its a bug. But yes, only SCS can add that well sought after feature.

LuftWolf · 07-20-06, 01:12 PM

It is NOT A BUG, there are VERY GOOD REASONS why this is not implimented in DW, and I support SCS 100% in this.

I can make submarines visable to surface ship using the same sensors, and I've been thinking about this carefully. In the end, I have decided not to do it... this sensor modelling is simulating the specialized mast-finding equipment found on many ASW aircraft, not just looking for masts and their wakes and hull of the submarine under the water. Also, of course, aircraft have a much better position (being in the air) to visually detect submarines underwater.

Additionally, the ranges we are talking about here are about 2nm max... any warship that has a hostile submarine within 2nm at PD clearly isn't paying enough attention to notice the masts anyway. :p

So, all in all, I think applying this fix to ASW aircraft only is the proper way to go. We'll see how it works.

Cheers,
David

goldorak · 07-20-06, 01:42 PM

Ok, point taken.

LuftWolf · 07-20-06, 01:51 PM

Ah, no worries... it's just that "bug" is kind of a loaded, and often misused term.

In my modding work, I only use the term bug when 1) I find something totally unexpected and counter-intuitive (from an engineering standpoint) while I'm in the middle of trying to add/fix a feature that really doesn't need any more complications 2) I run into non-optimal behavior in the software that I can't get around using the tools at my disposal.

So, the lack of the TB-23 on the 688i in the stock game: NOT a bug. The improper ascent of the submarines to PD: definately a bug.

But that's only from my perspective.

Cheers,
David

XabbaRus · 07-20-06, 02:20 PM

Luft what are the reasons that SCS didn't implement this? I can't remember. It is strange as I am dead sure that in 688i if you had your periscope up too long you could be picked up on radar after a bit. Fish will need to help me out with this one.

If it is because the radar model is so simple that the masts would show up 100% of the time regardless of conditions then I can see why they didn't do it.

Thing is any navy types here who could give a ball park range that a sharp lookout could see the masts of a sub at say sea state 2-3 with a sub doing 5 knots.

Luft I hope you don't take this the wrong way I appreciate what you are doing regards masts and getting subs detected at periscope depth etc, I just hope it doesn't affect the balance. If I understood correctly AI lookouts will spot a sub at PD as fast as a sub on the surface. I guess things will come out in the wash.

However is this only going to affect visual. I tried mucking around with the P-3s FLIR and allowed it in the dbase to "see" underwater. Didn't work so I guess it is hardcoded.

07-20-06, 06:40 AM	#1
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Edit : The issue (non detectability of masts by surface ships) is not to be considered a bug. case closed. Last edited by goldorak; 07-20-06 at 01:44 PM.

07-20-06, 07:58 AM	#2
DivingWind Engineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Lithuania Posts: 211 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Sounds great! Keep up the good work! __________________

07-20-06, 07:59 AM	#3
Phullbrick Seaman Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: France Posts: 42 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	too bad I remember I read a couple of days ago that some recent furtive frigates can get radar profils as low as a submarine with all its mats raised, too bad we have this bug here which prevent us from doing like in real. Plus, this is one of the OHP role (asw) which can't be done : I'm sure less submarine would go to surface to fire sam if they knew the OHP could already detect them when they are at PD looking above water before they surface. __________________

07-20-06, 10:00 AM	#4
OneShot Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 956 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	No offense, but technically the non detecting of masts is not a bug. Masts are simply not detectable objects ... at most you can call this an oversight or lack of a feature. If the game would be set up so masts are detectable objects and it doesn't work ... then its a bug. But yes, only SCS can add that well sought after feature. __________________ All the things you always wanted to know about Dangerous Waters but never dared to ask!

07-20-06, 01:12 PM	#5
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	It is NOT A BUG, there are VERY GOOD REASONS why this is not implimented in DW, and I support SCS 100% in this. I can make submarines visable to surface ship using the same sensors, and I've been thinking about this carefully. In the end, I have decided not to do it... this sensor modelling is simulating the specialized mast-finding equipment found on many ASW aircraft, not just looking for masts and their wakes and hull of the submarine under the water. Also, of course, aircraft have a much better position (being in the air) to visually detect submarines underwater. Additionally, the ranges we are talking about here are about 2nm max... any warship that has a hostile submarine within 2nm at PD clearly isn't paying enough attention to notice the masts anyway. :p So, all in all, I think applying this fix to ASW aircraft only is the proper way to go. We'll see how it works. Cheers, David __________________ LW Last edited by LuftWolf; 07-20-06 at 01:47 PM.

07-20-06, 01:42 PM	#6
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ok, point taken.

07-20-06, 01:51 PM	#7
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Ah, no worries... it's just that "bug" is kind of a loaded, and often misused term. In my modding work, I only use the term bug when 1) I find something totally unexpected and counter-intuitive (from an engineering standpoint) while I'm in the middle of trying to add/fix a feature that really doesn't need any more complications 2) I run into non-optimal behavior in the software that I can't get around using the tools at my disposal. So, the lack of the TB-23 on the 688i in the stock game: NOT a bug. The improper ascent of the submarines to PD: definately a bug. But that's only from my perspective. Cheers, David __________________ LW

07-20-06, 02:20 PM	#8
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Luft what are the reasons that SCS didn't implement this? I can't remember. It is strange as I am dead sure that in 688i if you had your periscope up too long you could be picked up on radar after a bit. Fish will need to help me out with this one. If it is because the radar model is so simple that the masts would show up 100% of the time regardless of conditions then I can see why they didn't do it. Thing is any navy types here who could give a ball park range that a sharp lookout could see the masts of a sub at say sea state 2-3 with a sub doing 5 knots. Luft I hope you don't take this the wrong way I appreciate what you are doing regards masts and getting subs detected at periscope depth etc, I just hope it doesn't affect the balance. If I understood correctly AI lookouts will spot a sub at PD as fast as a sub on the surface. I guess things will come out in the wash. However is this only going to affect visual. I tried mucking around with the P-3s FLIR and allowed it in the dbase to "see" underwater. Didn't work so I guess it is hardcoded. __________________