Mass Shooting thread

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

...and a minority of christian fundamentalists dominates the reshaping of society..

No. In fact it is just the opposite. It is the progressive left that is doing this.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by u crank

No. In fact it is just the opposite. It is the progressive left that is doing this.

Oh, really? Atni-Abortionist-Campaign, banning of books from libraries, promoting creationism and forcing kids to learn that in schools comes from the progresive left?
As I said: "it's their fault" beyond reason.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

Argumentations among Americans (not just politicians) these days seem to be a simple "we against them", with arguments reduced to "it's their fault" and the population at each others' throats, [...].

Originally Posted by u crank

No. In fact it is just the opposite. It is the progressive left that is doing this.

Still i do not think that Trump and his republicans are the "progressive left".
@ucrank: What exactly do YOU think the reshaping of society is?

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Catfish

@ucrank: What exactly do YOU think the reshaping of society is?

That's a pretty broad question but ok. The 'reshaping of society' would be the attempt to change long held beliefs and norms to advance a political and social agenda. Sometimes this is a good thing but if that attempt is based on an inaccurate assumption, society as a whole will be adversely affected. A glaring example of this is the current debate about sexual identity and gender. What does the progressive left believe? Without going into it you can say that these beliefs are not based on science or reality. Yet if you believe it and are promoting it then yes, that is an attempt to 'reshape society' and that is what the progressive left is doing.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by u crank

That's a pretty broad question but ok. The 'reshaping of society' would be the attempt to change long held beliefs and norms to advance a political and social agenda. Sometimes this is a good thing but if that attempt is based on an inaccurate assumption, society as a whole will be adversely affected.

A inaccurate assumption like "everyone benefits from capitalism"?

A glaring example of this is the current debate about sexual identity and gender.

One of the main (far) right talking points. Something that in the end doesn't affect them at all, something that they neiter do understand nor try to understand nor want to understand.
What does it say about a society if it forces its people to live unhappy lives or hide their true selves?

Without going into it you can say that these beliefs are not based on science or reality.

Like religion?

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

One of the main (far) right talking points. Something that in the end doesn't affect them at all, something that they neither do understand nor try to understand nor want to understand.

This is untrue on all points. How could it not effect them and society as a whole if it is based on unscientific assumptions? And if these unscientific beliefs are taught to children how could that be good? I'll go on record here and say that what you or anyone else believes about sex and gender is your business. I could care less until that moment when I am ask to believe and accept something I know is not true. I wouldn't do that to you or anyone else. Don't do it to me.

What does it say about a society if it forces its people to live unhappy lives or hide their true selves?

Although the are some people who might want that, it is not true for society in general. By far most people have understanding and acceptance.

I think the real question is what what kind of society would we have if we accept and believe certain things which go against basic science and common sense. Where will this lead? The problem with progressive/lefties is that they want to bend the will of others to accept trans ideology regardless of the arguments against it. There should be a middle ground here but don't ask a progressive what that is.

Like religion?

You'll get no argument about that from me.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by u crank

This is untrue on all points. How could it not effect them and society as a whole if it is based on unscientific assumptions? And if these unscientific beliefs are taught to children how could that be good? I'll go on record here and say that what you or anyone else believes about sex and gender is your business. I could care less until that moment when I am ask to believe and accept something I know is not true. I wouldn't do that to you or anyone else. Don't do it to me.

Quite wrong on so many accounts (and this "conservative" point of view usually doesn't survive the first contact with climate change).
You are not even asked to accept. You are asked to let others live their lives in peace - which is something you take for granted for yourself, but has been denied to LGBTQ+ (and many others) until very recently.



And I highly doubt you "know" it to be not true. You may want it to be not true, and you might put yourself under the illusion that it can't be true because it doesn't fit your point of view. That doesn't make it not true, however.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

You are not even asked to accept.

Sorry but that is just not true. Not only are we asked to accept but any criticism of trans and LGBTQ+ ideology can get a person into all kinds of trouble. I'm not sure what it is like in your country but that is a fact of life in the US and here in Canada. I believe that the UK is just as bad. This is 'wrong think' right out of 1984. Doesn't seem very 'progressive'.

You are asked to let others live their lives in peace - which is something you take for granted for yourself, but has been denied to LGBTQ+ (and many others) until very recently.

As I have stated, I could care less what other people believe about themselves. If they are happy that is all that matters. Good luck to them. But don't tell me that radical ideologies of any kind do not have an effect on the rest of society. The very idea that people can deny the state that they were born in (a scientific fact) and then cut off body parts to affirm that denial is not normal. I support anyone's right to do that or anything else to their bodies, but don't tell me it is normal or healthy behavior.

And I highly doubt you "know" it to be not true. You may want it to be not true, and you might put yourself under the illusion that it can't be true because it doesn't fit your point of view. That doesn't make it not true, however.

I know that females have 2 X chromosomes and males have 1 X and 1 Y chromosome. Is that news to you?

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

You are not even asked to accept. You are asked to let others live their lives in peace - which is something you take for granted for yourself, but has been denied to LGBTQ+ (and many others) until very recently.

I call BS.

Masterpiece Cakeshop vs Colorado civil rights commission. While the cakeshop prevailed in their appeal to the Supreme Court, (this was a very narrow ruling specific to this instance). Please pay specific attention to the dissenting opinion of the Court.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by u crank

The 'reshaping of society' would be the attempt to change long held beliefs and norms to advance a political and social agenda. [...].

Had written a long answer, but it vanished due to a browser glitch (Edge, of course)

In short:
Imho the lgbtq thing is a counter reaction to gay etc. people having been suppressed, criminalized and condemned for centuries, and all those reforms and civil rights being introduced never tackled this.
I do not think that sudenly more people are becoming gay /lesbian /bi /transgender /queer /whatever just because their "coming out" is suddenly allowed as being regarded as normal, and accepted as such, still minor compared to the statistical representative cross section of what you call humanity. Accept there are always some who are different, try not to humiliate them.
This has not much to do with "left" ideas but with human biology and relations, including tolerance. When i think about what England did to Alan Turing it still makes me vomit.

"The reshaping of the society", young humans have always had new ideas and old people were forever ranting against them, right or wrong. Give them time, it will all work out in the long run. And (unfortunately) nothing has or will really change(d).

[u crank]

Sorry but I somehow missed this post.

Originally Posted by Catfish

In short:
Imho the lgbtq thing is a counter reaction to gay etc. people having been suppressed, criminalized and condemned for centuries, and all those reforms and civil rights being introduced never tackled this.
I do not think that sudenly more people are becoming gay /lesbian /bi /transgender /queer /whatever just because their "coming out" is suddenly allowed as being regarded as normal, and accepted as such, still minor compared to the statistical representative cross section of what you call humanity. Accept there are always some who are different, try not to humiliate them.
This has not much to do with "left" ideas but with human biology and relations, including tolerance. When i think about what England did to Alan Turing it still makes me vomit.

Well said, especially this. "Accept there are always some who are different, try not to humiliate them."

"The reshaping of the society", young humans have always had new ideas and old people were forever ranting against them, right or wrong. Give them time, it will all work out in the long run. And (unfortunately) nothing has or will really change(d).

Obviously human society is evolving. It is only natural. And there will always be radical ideas that come into play. But some of these ideas are pushed hard by activists that sometimes don't represent the majority. That is the "reshaping" that I was referring to. And these types are easily found out because immediately upon having a discussion they start with the accusations of bigotry. They simply do not want the discussion.

The reshaping of society is ongoing, sometimes good and sometimes not so good. I believe that the best defense to the bad "reshaping" is knowledge.

Had written a long answer, but it vanished due to a browser glitch (Edge, of course)

Yea that is a drag. I now compose long posts on Notepad and then copy/paste. And even then ....

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Still i do not think that Trump and his republicans are the "progressive left".

From our European perspective the US doesn't even have anything that's truly left.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

From our European perspective the US doesn't even have anything that's truly left.

I'm starting to question your knowledge about America.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by u crank

I'm starting to question your knowledge about America.

Then count me in-'cause this is what I've been told/learned too-that USA does not really have a far left, a far left who has something to say.

Markus

[August]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Then count me in-'cause this is what I've been told/learned too-that USA does not really have a far left, a far left who has something to say.

Markus

What would be considered "far left" to you Markus?