China's rise to a naval power

Commander Wallace · 05-11-22, 07:02 AM

^

China hasn't been in the power projection long enough relative to the U.S, England or France. All of these countries, especially the U.S have honed their power projection abilities, especially the U.S, over many generations. Germany also knows how to build advanced submarines that can deploy equally advanced anti ship weapons. Finland and Sweden also build advanced weapon systems as well.

However, the Ukrainians have demonstrated just how effective anti ship missiles can be in an access denial scenario and or strategy. Power projection is one thing but using aircraft carriers in a contested area is another. Chinese carriers would be just as vulnerable and perhaps, more so.

These anti ship weapons can be delivered not only from the air but also submarines where the U.S has a decided technological advantage in deploying platforms like submarines and aircraft. The U.S has been in the submarine game longer than the Chinese as well and have the weapons and know how to show that.

The Chinese are watching the Ukrainian / Russian war unfold and understand the lethality of not only U.S made weapons but also the weapons of other NATO countries and also the indigenous weapons made by the Ukraine. Ships attacking Taiwan could effectively be reduced to smouldering hulks utilizing the same tactics and weapons supplied by the U.S and other NATO countries.

mapuc · 05-11-22, 07:12 AM

First of all what is China's military doctrine ? Is their aim to become a navy superpower like USA ? Or is their aim to be a coastal superpower ?

Markus

Commander Wallace · 05-11-22, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

First of all what is China's military doctrine ? Is their aim to become a navy superpower like USA ? Or is their aim to be a coastal superpower ?

Markus

China is trying to create a " blue water " fleet to project power and challenge the U.S, especially in the Pacific oceans. China hardly needs aircraft carriers for coastal protection.

mapuc · 05-11-22, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

China is trying to create a " blue water " fleet to project power and challenge the U.S, especially in the Pacific oceans. China hardly needs aircraft carriers for coastal protection.

Instead of putting my own I think that into writing I should have searched for information about their military doctrine and I found some pdf pages about China's military doctrine

https://setav.org/en/assets/uploads/2020/02/A56En.pdf

This one is huge

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_p...-000-WEB-1.pdf

Markus

Commander Wallace · 05-11-22, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Instead of putting my own I think that into writing I should have searched for information about their military doctrine and I found some pdf pages about China's military doctrine

https://setav.org/en/assets/uploads/2020/02/A56En.pdf

This one is huge

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_p...-000-WEB-1.pdf

Markus

^ Good information, Markus. Thanks for sharing.

mapuc · 05-11-22, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

^ Good information, Markus. Thanks for sharing.

The first paragraph was interesting

THE STRATEGIC ENVIRONMENT
1-1. China’s view of the strategic environment mirrors that of the United States in many ways. There are,
however, key differences in both analysis of the strategic environment and the application of this analysis
that underpin important differences in perspective between the two countries. Both the People’s Republic
of China—commonly referred to as China—and the United States assess the key elements of the strategic
environment

This part made me more convinced that China is helping Russia with material

1-4. China will continue to seek improved relations with Russia and India, with Russia likely
proving a more amenable partner. China views improving these two relationships—particularly with
Russia—as very important both politically and economically. Border tensions with India complicate
bilateral relations and are often perceived by India as aggressive, requiring strong responses and
adjustments to its defense posture.

Markus

Skybird · 05-11-22, 10:27 AM

I say again, the Chinese must not project their power over global distances when waging war against the US Navy. That war would be fought in close vicinity to China's landmass and many "island-carriers" and missile bastions and bases at the coast.

Its only a question of time anyway until China has a real blue water fleet with globla reach. They buy bases and airports and harbours in Europe, Africa... Do you think all that is only civilian trade effort?

Different to Russia, they are a real high tech nation - and different to Russia with enormous production capacities. And like Russia with a population ready to suffer great losses, if need be. And like Russia, their numerical defence budget value is not standardized to accoutn for lower prporeduciton costs, lower fatcor worker wages, and the ability to comamnd what the eocnomy shgould do and produce and when and at what cost. Take the published defenc ebdget, but to see what they can do with it comolared to Western budgets, multiply the Chinese budgets by several factors, most likely. Then you get an idea of their real defence spendings' condensate in material and effort.

Finally, do not forget that the US scatters its military power all over the place/globe, whereas the Chinese can and do focus their power all in a relatviely limited, small focus of interest region if clashing with the US Navy.

And Taiwan, it gets reported since years that the defence moral of the country has tremendously suffered in the recent decade(s). They talk the talk, but their military potence is such that I have some doubts that can walk the walk. And before Ukraine war at least it also was reported by foreign correspondents that they cannot really imagine to get attacked in all seroiusness. Like the Ukrainians did not belie it even days before the Russians invaded.

No side there - China, Taiwain or the US - has any reason to feel too self-assured when seeing how the Ukrainians deal with the Russians. The Ukrainian war shows all three of them just how vulnerable they are. Missiles and drones are the big equalizer.

05-11-22, 07:02 AM	#1
Commander Wallace Navy Seal Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Under the sea in an Octupus garden in the shade Posts: 5,294 Downloads: 366 Uploads: 0	^ China hasn't been in the power projection long enough relative to the U.S, England or France. All of these countries, especially the U.S have honed their power projection abilities, especially the U.S, over many generations. Germany also knows how to build advanced submarines that can deploy equally advanced anti ship weapons. Finland and Sweden also build advanced weapon systems as well. However, the Ukrainians have demonstrated just how effective anti ship missiles can be in an access denial scenario and or strategy. Power projection is one thing but using aircraft carriers in a contested area is another. Chinese carriers would be just as vulnerable and perhaps, more so. These anti ship weapons can be delivered not only from the air but also submarines where the U.S has a decided technological advantage in deploying platforms like submarines and aircraft. The U.S has been in the submarine game longer than the Chinese as well and have the weapons and know how to show that. The Chinese are watching the Ukrainian / Russian war unfold and understand the lethality of not only U.S made weapons but also the weapons of other NATO countries and also the indigenous weapons made by the Ukraine. Ships attacking Taiwan could effectively be reduced to smouldering hulks utilizing the same tactics and weapons supplied by the U.S and other NATO countries. Last edited by Commander Wallace; 05-11-22 at 07:12 AM.

05-11-22, 07:12 AM	#2
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,535 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	First of all what is China's military doctrine ? Is their aim to become a navy superpower like USA ? Or is their aim to be a coastal superpower ? Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

05-11-22, 10:27 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,604 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I say again, the Chinese must not project their power over global distances when waging war against the US Navy. That war would be fought in close vicinity to China's landmass and many "island-carriers" and missile bastions and bases at the coast. Its only a question of time anyway until China has a real blue water fleet with globla reach. They buy bases and airports and harbours in Europe, Africa... Do you think all that is only civilian trade effort? Different to Russia, they are a real high tech nation - and different to Russia with enormous production capacities. And like Russia with a population ready to suffer great losses, if need be. And like Russia, their numerical defence budget value is not standardized to accoutn for lower prporeduciton costs, lower fatcor worker wages, and the ability to comamnd what the eocnomy shgould do and produce and when and at what cost. Take the published defenc ebdget, but to see what they can do with it comolared to Western budgets, multiply the Chinese budgets by several factors, most likely. Then you get an idea of their real defence spendings' condensate in material and effort. Finally, do not forget that the US scatters its military power all over the place/globe, whereas the Chinese can and do focus their power all in a relatviely limited, small focus of interest region if clashing with the US Navy. And Taiwan, it gets reported since years that the defence moral of the country has tremendously suffered in the recent decade(s). They talk the talk, but their military potence is such that I have some doubts that can walk the walk. And before Ukraine war at least it also was reported by foreign correspondents that they cannot really imagine to get attacked in all seroiusness. Like the Ukrainians did not belie it even days before the Russians invaded. No side there - China, Taiwain or the US - has any reason to feel too self-assured when seeing how the Ukrainians deal with the Russians. The Ukrainian war shows all three of them just how vulnerable they are. *Missiles and drones are the big equalizer.* __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 05-11-22 at 10:40 AM.