ALL THE MISSING FEATURES THAT A WWII SUBMARINE SIMULATION SHOULD HAVE

Randomizer · 11-20-21, 11:40 AM

I would never use the pathetic AI found in the SES Jutland/Distant Guns games for a standard as it is really pretty pathetic. I certainly have never seen this shadowing behaviour that you refer to and both games time out after 30-minutes or less with no combat. 1st Cruiser Squadron's shadow of Bismarck was some 12-hours and so unreproducable by Jutland because of the timeout issue.

Jutland also used a far too simplistic and entirely linear, points based algorithm to determine the force ratio. The AI, such as it is, will always flee a superior force and always close to suicidal ranges against an inferior force. Since these values are global across the action, it explains why it sometimes behaves in odd ways. I have been told by a source that I trust (of course you do not have to), that the AI also has full, real time knowledge of the strengths and locations of the Player forces and so never suffers from the Fog-of-War.

Try the Coronel scenario as von Spee and you will see that Cradock will always run. Playing as the British see the Germans will soon close to ranges where even little Otranto can get hits with her 4.7" popguns. Every time that I have played the scenario, this cycle of lameness repeats.

The AI in the Steam and Iron franchise does shadow and never times out and makes a far better example of an adequate naval programmed opponent.

-C

iambecomelife · 11-20-21, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

I would never use the pathetic AI found in the SES Jutland/Distant Guns games for a standard as it is really pretty pathetic. I certainly have never seen this shadowing behaviour that you refer to and both games time out after 30-minutes or less with no combat. 1st Cruiser Squadron's shadow of Bismarck was some 12-hours and so unreproducable by Jutland because of the timeout issue.

Jutland also used a far too simplistic and entirely linear, points based algorithm to determine the force ratio. The AI, such as it is, will always flee a superior force and always close to suicidal ranges against an inferior force. Since these values are global across the action, it explains why it sometimes behaves in odd ways. I have been told by a source that I trust (of course you do not have to), that the AI also has full, real time knowledge of the strengths and locations of the Player forces and so never suffers from the Fog-of-War.

Try the Coronel scenario as von Spee and you will see that Cradock will always run. Playing as the British see the Germans will soon close to ranges where even little Otranto can get hits with her 4.7" popguns. Every time that I have played the scenario, this cycle of lameness repeats.

The AI in the Steam and Iron franchise does shadow and never times out and makes a far better example of an adequate naval programmed opponent.

-C

Interesting. I was impressed by certain aspects of Jutland's AI (I often used BC's for commerce raiding and the British destroyers would always run from me, as they should). I did not know about all the other issues - hope that the next generation of sims (Wolfpack, Crash Dive) fix this.

Another issue - rescuing survivors. That's another issue that historically limited Allied escorts - several ships were sunk rescuing merchant crews, and naturally the Allied navies found that leaving lifeboats behind was bad for merchant ship crews' morale. All the more reason to NOT have every single escort come charging after the player's sub once torpedoes hit a ship. No need for a complex animation (although that would be nice) - just have 1 or 2 corvettes/DD's approach a sinking ship for 10-20 minutes...maybe animate some men climbing up a Jacob's Ladder.

Mister_M · 11-20-21, 04:46 PM

Battle between surface ships is not the goal of a submarine simulation. In the Battle of the Atlantic, playing as a submarine, you will probably never see any german battleship in action. Moreover, destroyers can attack with torpedoes at night. The night before Bismarck was sunk, she was chased during hours by several british destroyers which tried to torpedoe her, but they were repulsed by Bismarck artillery.

About escorts of a convoy, you can have only one or two escort ships attacking you, while the others stay in escort position, simply by choosing the level (veteran and elite will attack you, medium and less will stay in position). But yes, a better and more realistic coordination between AI escort units would be nice.

About picking survivors, well it's no more than eye candy for me. You can add small ships (like trawlers) at the end of the convoy to simulate this. But yes, it would be cool to see a recue ship coming near a sinking vessel and stay a moment.

About surface attack done only by your crew, a historical chain of commands would be good, there would be an officer on the bridge to set the torpedo's data. You would be able to talk directly to the interior of the u-boot with the voice tubes to order to set torpedo's speed, flood tube, etc ...), and crew could talk to you either (like tube 1 ready for fire, etc.). So, have a chat list instead of GUI's buttons like the "fire" button, and a whole algorithm for the crew to answer you, depending on the situation. The game's goal being to simulate the u-boot's commander position, even if you would be able to do some manual adjustments (like tweaking TDC's data).

11-20-21, 11:40 AM	#1
Randomizer Weps Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 366 Downloads: 140 Uploads: 0	I would never use the pathetic AI found in the SES Jutland/Distant Guns games for a standard as it is really pretty pathetic. I certainly have never seen this shadowing behaviour that you refer to and both games time out after 30-minutes or less with no combat. 1st Cruiser Squadron's shadow of Bismarck was some 12-hours and so unreproducable by Jutland because of the timeout issue. Jutland also used a far too simplistic and entirely linear, points based algorithm to determine the force ratio. The AI, such as it is, will always flee a superior force and always close to suicidal ranges against an inferior force. Since these values are global across the action, it explains why it sometimes behaves in odd ways. I have been told by a source that I trust (of course you do not have to), that the AI also has full, real time knowledge of the strengths and locations of the Player forces and so never suffers from the Fog-of-War. Try the Coronel scenario as von Spee and you will see that Cradock will always run. Playing as the British see the Germans will soon close to ranges where even little Otranto can get hits with her 4.7" popguns. Every time that I have played the scenario, this cycle of lameness repeats. The AI in the Steam and Iron franchise does shadow and never times out and makes a far better example of an adequate naval programmed opponent. -C

11-20-21, 04:46 PM	#3
Mister_M Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 942 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Battle between surface ships is not the goal of a submarine simulation. In the Battle of the Atlantic, playing as a submarine, you will probably never see any german battleship in action. Moreover, destroyers can attack with torpedoes at night. The night before Bismarck was sunk, she was chased during hours by several british destroyers which tried to torpedoe her, but they were repulsed by Bismarck artillery. About escorts of a convoy, you can have only one or two escort ships attacking you, while the others stay in escort position, simply by choosing the level (veteran and elite will attack you, medium and less will stay in position). But yes, a better and more realistic coordination between AI escort units would be nice. About picking survivors, well it's no more than eye candy for me. You can add small ships (like trawlers) at the end of the convoy to simulate this. But yes, it would be cool to see a recue ship coming near a sinking vessel and stay a moment. About surface attack done only by your crew, a historical chain of commands would be good, there would be an officer on the bridge to set the torpedo's data. You would be able to talk directly to the interior of the u-boot with the voice tubes to order to set torpedo's speed, flood tube, etc ...), and crew could talk to you either (like tube 1 ready for fire, etc.). So, have a chat list instead of GUI's buttons like the "fire" button, and a whole algorithm for the crew to answer you, depending on the situation. The game's goal being to simulate the u-boot's commander position, even if you would be able to do some manual adjustments (like tweaking TDC's data).