Prize rules

Mister_M · 11-02-21, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Rudewarrior, by 1942 were u-boat crews even bothering with boarding attempts ?
I was under the impression that stopping/boarding was strictly a very early war only scenario due to various reasons.

Yes, I've just read that today : https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/1910.html

But probably not a general case...

FUBAR295 · 11-02-21, 06:52 PM

This is from U-96's KTB 7. Unternahmung on stopping a Spanish Steamer from U-boat Archieve web site. It appears some U-boat Captains preferred to have the ships papers brought over to them than to risk sending personnel over to look at them and examine the merchantman.

This is also part of the book Das Boot.

3.12.41
On course 0°T. 04.00 CG 5761 NEbyN 2, Sea 2, 3/10, Vis. good, Swell 2 05.38 Steamer in sight bearing 240°. Closed, [steamer is] steering SE-course. Passenger superstructure. Spanish markings. Brightly lit. Size and course made him appear suspicious. Used searchlight in order to request him to stop. Gives name "CABO DE HORNOS". Requested to send papers in English and Spanish language. Steamer acknowledges. It remains stopped, nothing happens. 06.52 Radio message to B.d.U. transmitted: Is not received by administration and is acknowledged only at 08.12 hours. "Large passenger steamer "CABO DE HORNOS" Spanish markings, steering SE, question reported status. CG 5467." After approximately one hour nothing happened, with renewed demand he answered with international signal groups "forziere pp". Morsed in Spanish that if the boat is not launched within 10-minutes, torpedoing will take place. 05.43 - 08.00 Various courses. 07.37 After 15-minute stern shot fired on stopped ship. It fails, likely an effect of the bombs. Before the second shot boat is in the water. Papers aboard at 08.00 hours. Are correct. On the way from Buenos Aires

Sun and Moon Data 02.12.41 Sun and Moon Data 03.12.41

- 26 -

03.12.41 to Bilbao by way of Lisbon. 08.00 CG 5731 W NE 2, Sea 2, 7/10, Vis. good, Swell 1 09.05 Radio message transmitted: "Papers examined. Enroute Bilbao." 09.26 Radio message from B.d.U.: Let pass. 08.30 hours Continued on course 0°T.

John Pancoast · 11-02-21, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Yes, I've just read that today : https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/1910.html

But probably not a general case...

Thanks ! I wonder if that u-boat captain would have done that with a (potenially more dangerous) ship in the North Atlantic.

Mister_M · 11-03-21, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Thanks ! I wonder if that u-boat captain would have done that with a (potenially more dangerous) ship in the North Atlantic.

Well, if the ship is armed, she's not neutral...

John Pancoast · 11-03-21, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Well, if the ship is armed, she's not neutral...

Right, but most of the time they couldn't tell.

rudewarrior · 11-03-21, 01:44 PM

I knew about the U-96 incident from reading Das Boot. Didn't know about the Nicholas Cuneo. Always good to read about those individual stories.

The Germans were pretty much looking for any excuse to get to unrestricted warfare. However, the political situation created fluidity and openings.

I looked back through some of my notes and research. As far as Prize Rules abrogation goes, originally, ships eligible to be attacked without warning were escorted ships, those that refuse inspection, and troop/military transports. Of course, naval ships were always eligible for attack.

In the first hours of the war there was some confusion. War was declared and the uboats didn't know for 1-1/2 hours, since it wasn't communicated to them. Then there was an assumption that the war/political situation was reversible, and there was a question of whether they had to wait to be engaged before they could act.

Although prize crews are great because you get a free ship and some contraband, it would cause uboats to become operationally ineffective all the time as you had to offboard crew over operational time. In addition, during the stoppage, uboats were vulnerable on the surface.

From here, they started stripping parts away. Ships that fired on the uboat could be sunk (no brainer). This was a result of regular merchants who had small caliber defenses firing on the uboat and Q-ships. Ships that notified enemy of the uboat presence could be sunk, because enemy were showing up during the inspection boarding process. This also included small private vessels tooling around the British coast.

Somewhere in there they decided any ship that endangered a uboat, e.g. ramming, was eligible.

Any issue that created an issue with uboat safety created an opening to abrogate.

About 3 days before they declared a blockade around Britain, they announced they were abandoning the Prize Rules in the North Sea. Then they declared the blockade around Britain saying anything darkened was eligible for attack. In the middle of Oct 1939, they stopped boarding the ships and just examined the papers. Turns out there is no provision for armed merchants in the Prize rules and they declared them eligible around this time as well.

The lettered zones were a bit curious. Basically, they were trying to make the enemy believe that mines were sinking the ships. This is speculation, but I think the idea was make it a plausible idea that mine deployment was resulting in merchant ships being sunk. I think they were trying to achieve a few different things with this. One was immediate tactics and making the British think that it was a mine at that particular instant vs. a uboat, so the uboats would have some cover/distraction in shallow waters. I think they were also trying to create a political situation that had a couple of pieces to it. I think they were trying to embarrass the British by pointing to their mines as being unsafe for themselves, but also any merchants that would be coming in the area. This would supposedly help deter individual merchants from coming to this war zone, thus helping to strangle supply. Also, it would theoretically start deterring the British from using mines for the same reason. They used this system for the first 8 months of 1940 then replaced it with a blanket blockade. Once the French coast opened up, tactics shifted from the North Sea to the North Atlantic, specifically west of the British Isles. The blockade eventually extended west to encompass Iceland and the coast of Greenland. This was because there was a strategic advantage to attacking convoys in the Atlantic vs. operating in shallow waters around Britain with mines floating in the water and aircraft buzzing around.

At this point, it didn't change very much until the end of the war. They were taking over more countries and the conditions I previously posted were pretty much the norm.

The whole concept of stopping ships for inspection pretty much came to an end with the Laconia incident in September '42. Basically, uboats that were clearly assisting in a rescue operation were attacked by B-24 Liberators. By this point, it was pretty hard to justify not firing on a ship that looked suspicious, and the conditions that justified surfacing and inspecting the ships records were pretty restrictive.

Then they just started losing, and were pretty much fighting from a defensive crouch the remainder of the war.

The only caveat to this is how passenger ships were treated. They were in a separate category depending on whether they were armed, in a convoy, or a certain size. This was due to the sinking of the SS Athenia.

A lot of info, and I haven't bored you too much with this post.

John Pancoast · 11-03-21, 02:39 PM

Amazing isn't it; "It's Tuesday, what are rules today Captain ?" "I'm not sure, but let me consult the book (heavy thud sound)" Need a crewmember just to keep track of all that.

FUBAR295 · 11-03-21, 04:13 PM

John,

Aren't you glad I turned you on to this mod!

Rudewarrior,

I just love the confusion of orders that can occur with you mod.

Makes everything more immersive.

Mister_M · 11-04-21, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Amazing isn't it; "It's Tuesday, what are rules today Captain ?" "I'm not sure, but let me consult the book (heavy thud sound)" Need a crewmember just to keep track of all that.

Kongo Otto · 11-04-21, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudewarrior

In addition, during the stoppage, uboats were vulnerable on the surface.

At 17th September, 1939 Royal Nayv submarine HMS Seahorse unsuccessful fired a spread of three torpedoes at U-36, which had stopped to question a neutral steamer.
U-36 was then sunk in December 1939 with all hand lost by a torpedo from HMS Salmon.

Mister_M · 11-04-21, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kongo Otto

At 17th September, 1939 Royal Nayv submarine HMS Seahorse unsuccessful fired a spread of three torpedoes at U-36, which had stopped to question a neutral steamer.

Wow ! How did they miss ?

11-02-21, 06:52 PM	#2
FUBAR295 Krusty Krab Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Decks awash in the North Atlantic Posts: 1,450 Downloads: 493 Uploads: 0	This is from U-96's KTB 7. Unternahmung on stopping a Spanish Steamer from U-boat Archieve web site. It appears some U-boat Captains preferred to have the ships papers brought over to them than to risk sending personnel over to look at them and examine the merchantman. This is also part of the book Das Boot. 3.12.41 On course 0°T. 04.00 CG 5761 NEbyN 2, Sea 2, 3/10, Vis. good, Swell 2 05.38 Steamer in sight bearing 240°. Closed, [steamer is] steering SE-course. Passenger superstructure. Spanish markings. Brightly lit. Size and course made him appear suspicious. Used searchlight in order to request him to stop. Gives name "CABO DE HORNOS". Requested to send papers in English and Spanish language. Steamer acknowledges. It remains stopped, nothing happens. 06.52 Radio message to B.d.U. transmitted: Is not received by administration and is acknowledged only at 08.12 hours. "Large passenger steamer "CABO DE HORNOS" Spanish markings, steering SE, question reported status. CG 5467." After approximately one hour nothing happened, with renewed demand he answered with international signal groups "forziere pp". Morsed in Spanish that if the boat is not launched within 10-minutes, torpedoing will take place. 05.43 - 08.00 Various courses. 07.37 After 15-minute stern shot fired on stopped ship. It fails, likely an effect of the bombs. Before the second shot boat is in the water. Papers aboard at 08.00 hours. Are correct. On the way from Buenos Aires Sun and Moon Data 02.12.41 Sun and Moon Data 03.12.41 - 26 - 03.12.41 to Bilbao by way of Lisbon. 08.00 CG 5731 W NE 2, Sea 2, 7/10, Vis. good, Swell 1 09.05 Radio message transmitted: "Papers examined. Enroute Bilbao." 09.26 Radio message from B.d.U.: Let pass. 08.30 hours Continued on course 0°T. __________________ Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment.

11-03-21, 02:39 PM	#7
John Pancoast Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Minnysoda Posts: 3,211 Downloads: 501 Uploads: 4	Amazing isn't it; "It's Tuesday, what are rules today Captain ?" "I'm not sure, but let me consult the book (heavy thud sound)" Need a crewmember just to keep track of all that. __________________ "Realistic" is not always GAME-GOOD." - Wave Skipper

11-03-21, 04:13 PM	#8
FUBAR295 Krusty Krab Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Decks awash in the North Atlantic Posts: 1,450 Downloads: 493 Uploads: 0	John, Aren't you glad I turned you on to this mod! Rudewarrior, I just love the confusion of orders that can occur with you mod. Makes everything more immersive. __________________ Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment.

11-03-21, 01:44 PM	#6
rudewarrior Sonar Guy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Middlebury, VT, USA Posts: 378 Downloads: 165 Uploads: 2	I knew about the U-96 incident from reading Das Boot. Didn't know about the Nicholas Cuneo. Always good to read about those individual stories. The Germans were pretty much looking for any excuse to get to unrestricted warfare. However, the political situation created fluidity and openings. I looked back through some of my notes and research. As far as Prize Rules abrogation goes, originally, ships eligible to be attacked without warning were escorted ships, those that refuse inspection, and troop/military transports. Of course, naval ships were always eligible for attack. In the first hours of the war there was some confusion. War was declared and the uboats didn't know for 1-1/2 hours, since it wasn't communicated to them. Then there was an assumption that the war/political situation was reversible, and there was a question of whether they had to wait to be engaged before they could act. Although prize crews are great because you get a free ship and some contraband, it would cause uboats to become operationally ineffective all the time as you had to offboard crew over operational time. In addition, during the stoppage, uboats were vulnerable on the surface. From here, they started stripping parts away. Ships that fired on the uboat could be sunk (no brainer). This was a result of regular merchants who had small caliber defenses firing on the uboat and Q-ships. Ships that notified enemy of the uboat presence could be sunk, because enemy were showing up during the inspection boarding process. This also included small private vessels tooling around the British coast. Somewhere in there they decided any ship that endangered a uboat, e.g. ramming, was eligible. Any issue that created an issue with uboat safety created an opening to abrogate. About 3 days before they declared a blockade around Britain, they announced they were abandoning the Prize Rules in the North Sea. Then they declared the blockade around Britain saying anything darkened was eligible for attack. In the middle of Oct 1939, they stopped boarding the ships and just examined the papers. Turns out there is no provision for armed merchants in the Prize rules and they declared them eligible around this time as well. The lettered zones were a bit curious. Basically, they were trying to make the enemy believe that mines were sinking the ships. This is speculation, but I think the idea was make it a plausible idea that mine deployment was resulting in merchant ships being sunk. I think they were trying to achieve a few different things with this. One was immediate tactics and making the British think that it was a mine at that particular instant vs. a uboat, so the uboats would have some cover/distraction in shallow waters. I think they were also trying to create a political situation that had a couple of pieces to it. I think they were trying to embarrass the British by pointing to their mines as being unsafe for themselves, but also any merchants that would be coming in the area. This would supposedly help deter individual merchants from coming to this war zone, thus helping to strangle supply. Also, it would theoretically start deterring the British from using mines for the same reason. They used this system for the first 8 months of 1940 then replaced it with a blanket blockade. Once the French coast opened up, tactics shifted from the North Sea to the North Atlantic, specifically west of the British Isles. The blockade eventually extended west to encompass Iceland and the coast of Greenland. This was because there was a strategic advantage to attacking convoys in the Atlantic vs. operating in shallow waters around Britain with mines floating in the water and aircraft buzzing around. At this point, it didn't change very much until the end of the war. They were taking over more countries and the conditions I previously posted were pretty much the norm. The whole concept of stopping ships for inspection pretty much came to an end with the Laconia incident in September '42. Basically, uboats that were clearly assisting in a rescue operation were attacked by B-24 Liberators. By this point, it was pretty hard to justify not firing on a ship that looked suspicious, and the conditions that justified surfacing and inspecting the ships records were pretty restrictive. Then they just started losing, and were pretty much fighting from a defensive crouch the remainder of the war. The only caveat to this is how passenger ships were treated. They were in a separate category depending on whether they were armed, in a convoy, or a certain size. This was due to the sinking of the SS Athenia. A lot of info, and I haven't bored you too much with this post.