AUKUS

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Exocet25fr

FUKUS is more appropriate, no?

I suggest the Green Peace flag for these subs !

And a name for the first one: Rainbow Warrior !

And that all ended well for French repotation didn't it?

Originally Posted by ET2SN

The truth is that France lost this deal.

Call it whatever you want, just don't let the door hit you in the back side.

Rgr that.

[Exocet25fr]

Australia wins the deal !

''Welcome in the club of Nuclear Targets'' with Chinese or Russian missiles in a probable WW3 !

Never trust in a contract writed in english......

FRANCE not be concerned in a Pacific War

FoE ?: AUS, US and Perfide Albion
China and USSR aren't our ennemies, many French people prefers Poutine now !

biden = trump

The France must leave NATO, OMS etc....

[Jimbuna]

At some point someone must make a stand against the Chinese so what better time than now.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Exocet25fr

Australia wins the deal !

''Welcome in the club of Nuclear Targets'' with Chinese or Russian missiles in a probable WW3 !

Never trust in a contract writed in english......

FRANCE not be concerned in a Pacific War

FoE ?: AUS, US and Perfide Albion
China and USSR aren't our ennemies, many French people prefers Poutine now !

biden = trump

The France must leave NATO, OMS etc....

Their new subs will have nuclear as propulsion, they will not be equip with nukes.

Furthermore in a nuclear exchange in a WWIII Australia will get their parts of nukes too whether they have nuclear propulset subs or not.

Markus

[Exocet25fr]

[Jimbuna]

^ Care to translate whatever is being said in the clip?

[Skybird]

What does AUKUS reveal about the EU's international reputation? CNN scores the bull's eye.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/16/w...cmd/index.html

Damn. Another of those superclever indepth longterm complex wondermiracle super dooper high intelligentia strategy plans of Brussels blown out of the window.

Stupid EU illusions. "Hope is not a strategy." Should become part of the oath for any EU official being sworn into office.

[Platapus]

Very sad that France is unhappy.



Really really sad.



giggle

[Skybird]

Fance hoped to have a say in keeping resistance to China low and thus making the EU, namely France and its European extension, an indispensable mediator. Change by trade, this German long lasting fallacy that has not worked with Russia and not with China so far. China is no friend. No partner. It does not meet Europe on same eye level but sees Europe as inferior.



China now wants to join a trade bloc created by Obama to counte rChinese influence in the region, which was abandoned by the Donald becasue the treaty was made by Obama. One of those shining exmaples of Donaldinarian genius.


https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58579832

The pact that eventually became the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), was created by the US to counter China's influence.


However, former President Donald Trump pulled the US out of it in 2017.


Chinese commerce minister Wang Wentao said the world's second largest economy had submitted its application to join the free trade agreement in a letter to New Zealand's trade minister, Damien O'Connor.


New Zealand acts as the administrative centre for the pact.


Mr Wang and Mr O'Connor then held a telephone conference to discuss the next steps following China's application, the Chinese Ministry of Commerce said.


The original Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) was promoted by then-President Barack Obama as an economic bloc to challenge China's increasingly powerful position in the Asia Pacific.


After Mr Trump pulled the US out of the deal, Japan led negotiations to create what became the CPTPP.

If the local states there are smart, they reject the Chinese, else China will become inevitably the dominant actor in it, abusing it to promote its own powerpolitical goals. Or they fall for typical EU fallacy: chnage by trade, and blablabla and the end is clear: China dominates at will.

[Jimbuna]

The US and UK are facing growing international criticism over a new security pact signed with Australia.

The deal - seen as an effort to counter China - will see the US and UK give Australia the technology to build nuclear-powered submarines.

But the move angered France, which said it had been "stabbed in the back", while China accused the three powers of having a "Cold War mentality".

And the pact has raised fears that it could provoke China into a war.

The alliance, known as Aukus, was announced by US President Joe Biden, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his Australian counterpart Scott Morrison on Wednesday.

While they did not mention China, Aukus is being widely viewed as an effort to counter Beijing's influence in the contested South China Sea.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58592613

One country mentioned in the above has a short memory.

[mapuc]

Well.....

France recalls envoys in U.S, Australia over submarine deal - statement

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...nt-2021-09-17/

Markus

[Kapitan]

From what I'm hearing on the grape vine France is Royally P**ssed off, yes i can understand why however they have to bear some of the blame here.

A deal was signed in 2016 for a projected $35bn in 2021 that cost was now slated at $90bn.
In that time there has been some work granted however Australia gave France an ultimatum back in about March that if they saw no results by September they would pull the plug.
Which is what they did.

France has over run on design phase, that means delivery will be late, that also means costs go up, and from 2016 to today there's little to show for the money already spent.

I believe it was 2011 (might be wrong) but Australia did approach France about nuclear reactor technology transfer and the French declined the deal.

Realistically the French bid was not the best bid in a technical sense, it lacked submerged endurance of the type 212, didn't have the power capacity of the Soryu but what it did have was most certainly something the Australians wanted the most which was to have it built in Australia and that's why they won the bid.

When it comes to the EU I cannot trust their foreign policy, the EU have been very accommodating to China and indeed Russia over the last decade.
The EU wants its own defense force which it clearly stated in the 1998 st malo treaty that was the pre text for what was to come.
The EU doesn't want tension in the Pacific it wants to appease China, a dangerous game as we all know what happened last time re 1930's

In all of this Marie Le Pen could be elected and if so I know she wants France out of the EU and that would be a good thing, the Dutch are also on that tipping point, the Greeks and Italians are not very fond of the EU either.

France has been a dubious ally in the past it has flip flopped in and out of NATO, they don't care to assist others, the UK's CASD is designed to protect not just the UK but also our NATO partners in Europe this includes France, yet France does not reciprocate.

More recently having dealt with the Mali problems, France requested UK assistance in the region, we reluctantly accepted and then they tried to send us the bill ! note they got told to swiftly jog on. (I did help in some of this program)

From a few sources I have the Suffren isn't what its made out to be it falls quite a bit short in some areas, but is very good in others, one notable source of mine stated "the sonar leaves a lot to be desired"
Suffren is quiet and uses advanced technologies yet in some areas is antiquated. (thats not a bad thing BTW our Trafalgars use an autopilot system that dates to 1944)

Suffren IMO and several other sources I have note that both Virginia and Astute would be able to find her and take her out before she could respond (This is from USN Norwegian and RN sources I have)

Could France have sold the Suffren to Australia ? yes and to be honest it probably would have been a good deal.


Australia getting SSN's I do have to admit I never thought it would come given their historic anti nuclear policy (yet being one of the largest uranium producers in the world) therefore I didn't see that coming.
Does a SSN make sense for Australia given the region and area they operate plus what their goals are it makes perfect logical sense.

I will leave you with this, Pay very close attention to the defense white paper in 2025 it may surprise you

[Skybird]

Me too is surprised on Australia's tough stance towards China. In the past one or two decades I would have expected - and said so - that sooner or later they would somewhat disconnect from their ties to the UK and the US and learn to fall in line much more with Chinese demands, due to their geographical vicinity to them. That they accept escalation now and not blindly appease Bejing even when it sees them suffering unfriendly economic consequences is something I did not expect. I admit that I seem to have been fundamentally wrong there. If this stance lives beyond the current Australian administration, of course. Honestly said I have not even a clue on the swing and moods of the Australian politlical landscape.

On france, it is not so much about the lost money form the submarine contract. France has so many debts and sees Germany finally agreeing to form a debt union in the ECB zone with the collectivization of debts at the cost of the net paying nations, that this deal does not really matter. For france it is about its absurd stance of seeing itself still as a globally important power - ironically France practices in extremis what it and what the EU accuses brexiting UK heavily of: to think and act as if the UK still had a great empire and a higher fleet, rviving the glory of the past. Well, the Brits could take lessons from the French in this. France has ambitions and poses in a way that economically and fiscally it cannot afford. It sees the EU as a vehicle for implementing French claims for leadership, and French interests. But it cannot finance these by its own means, it needs Germany to pay parts of its bills for the French. Thats the Germans that twice rolled over them and plowed them under with ease although the French army was superior. France still wants to sit at the table with the global great players - question is whether it really belongs there. It has one of the only two really war-ready and capable armies in the EU - oh wait, the other has just brexitted away, I always forget that... -, but it has not really the economic strength to maintain and support its claimed role. What Biden did now is to show them how small and relatively unimportan they really are. And thats a narcisstic offence they find hard to take. Even more so since they fpoudn themselve sunable to get out of WWII "victoriously" without massive aid and assistance from the UK and the US.

But I am wondering anyway. Biden again and again has said he sees China as a rival and the challenge - I assume he also implied the military dimension there - of the future, and that it cannot be a partner - as Merkel wanted it to make appear (once again in vein, obviously). Does nobody in Europe listen when Biden talks about China...??? Or do the Europeans think he is kidding? France could have seen this coming. Washington does not take France or Brussel too serious. because it has no reason to do so. Europe is too weak. Soft power does not score against a violent regime ready to use brutal force instead of endless streams of kind wordings.

Great scene.


It was a French who said "States have no friends. States have interests." And France all too often acts accordingly, in the EU and in Europe. Now a bigger bully came along and kicked them on the nose. And there is nothing they can do. Big lament!

Paris also could have seen it coming due to its own performance in fullfilling that contract's conditions. Delays and delays and spoiled time tables, I am pretty sure they enforced these intentionally to keep australia unfit to seriously pose a challenge to China so that France and the EU could keep "relevant" as a mediator in the region even while not being strong themselves, and doing trade with china. France wanted a weak Australia. Like it wants a weak Britain and an America that Europe turns away from - and instead turns to Paris.



My sympathy for France in this story is nill. And I cannot accuse the leaders of three other nations that are not my nation for keeping up what they see as their nations interests. Thats what they have sworn an oath to do and thats what they are obligated to do by their nation's respective laws and constitutions. Paris thought it had good cards and overplayed its hand. And of course its the guilt of the others.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

My sympathy for France in this story is nill. And I cannot accuse the leaders of three other nations that are not my nation for keeping up what they see as their nations interests. Thats what they have sworn an oath to do and thats what they are obligated to do by their nation's respective laws and constitutions. Paris thought it had good cards and overplayed its hand. And of course its the guilt of the others.

Pretty much how I see it

[Exocet25fr]

CHIRUS Partners now........ good luck to the trump clon, to the rosbeef and the fella if France leaves NATO, because they said we are vital and solid rock, but we know now they are lying !

BRAVO AMERICA FIRST!

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals...n-organization