Afghanistan deadline

[Jimbuna]

Hundreds of Afghans managed to get onto the half-open ramp of the US Air Force C-17 aircraft on Sunday as it left Kabul for Qatar, just hours after the Taliban took over the capital.

Instead of forcing them off, the crew decided to take off, according to US defence news website Defense One. Some 640 people were onboard the aircraft - among the largest numbers ever flown in a C-17.

Images on Monday showed people running to planes as they left the tarmac. The US army says soldiers shot two armed men, while three people are reported to have died after falling from the underside of a plane they were clinging to shortly after take-off.

[Skybird]

The quite left-leaning Süddeutsche Zeitung writes this, and I almost completely agree wit everything in it (doesnt happen often with the SZ):

Nobody will claim that US President Joe Biden did everything right in withdrawing American troops from Afghanistan. Not even he himself would. But just as wrong are those who now say that he did everything wrong. It is true that Biden's name will forever be associated with the inglorious end of the 20 year long war, with all the terrible images that are going around the world and will be remembered for a long time. But it's not just his fault. -

Four presidents have sat in the White House since 2001, two Republicans and two Democrats. George W. Bush started the war based on the 9/11 attacks, which will soon be the 20th anniversary. Even under his leadership it became clear that the USA would not win this war. Bush's successor Barack Obama couldn't bring himself to withdraw at first, just as he couldn't bring himself to do so much - by the way, although his Vice President Biden advised him to end his American engagement at the time. Then Obama decided to withdraw most of the combat troops by 2014, although the US Air Force and special forces continued to support Afghanistan's army. -

Obama, arguably the most intellectual US president in recent history, has often been a procrastinator. His successor Donald Trump, arguably the least intellectual US president in recent history, had agreed with the Taliban to withdraw American troops, but failed to negotiate any significant consideration in return. The main thing was just to get a deal - any deal. Trump had even promised to withdraw the troops by May 1st - Biden is right when he says that his predecessor's agreement left him little choice but to initiate the withdrawal. Trump had even promised to withdraw the troops by May 1. Biden then slowed the process down a bit, hoping to make a halfway orderly transition. This hope has not been fulfilled, on the contrary. It is a withdrawal accompanied by death and suffering, fear and anger, and for this Biden, as commander in chief of the armed forces, must take responsibility. -

When, after several days of silence, the president turned to the nation on Monday to justify his actions, he posed this question in the room: Why should US troops continue fighting a war that the Afghan troops apparently do not want to fight themselves ? -

On the one hand, it looked as if Biden, like a bad loser, was pointing his finger at an apparently unwilling army in order to shift the blame from itself. On the other hand, there is also something to it. The Americans worked hard to train the Afghan army. They invested billions of dollars and provided the equipment. The Afghan army and national police comprised 300,000 soldiers; they outnumbered the Taliban by more than four times. Could it really be expected that they would offer next to no resistance? -

Biden has been the White House's most experienced foreign policy maker for at least half a century. He saw the end of the Vietnam War as a young senator. Even so, he was told not to have learned anything from history. That's not true.
Precisely because of the experience from Vietnam, Biden had long been in favor of the trigger. He wanted and wants to recalibrate US foreign policy and focus more on the relationship with its major rivals China and Russia. He believes it has long played into the hands of these nations that the US invested gigantic resources in the Hindu Kush that were lacking elsewhere. -

There is no question that good arguments can be found for the trigger. The majority of US politicians in both parties have been in favor of this for years. It was no longer possible to convey to the American people that the country was waging a never-ending war on the other side of the world. Many supporters of Trump and Biden even agreed on this subject. The majority of people in the United States should therefore be in favor of Biden's approach. -

However, the way it was withdrawn is a complete disaster. Biden had decided on the symbolic date of September 11th by which he would bring the American troops home. He put himself under unnecessary time pressure, which the Taliban used mercilessly. It would have made sense to withdraw, in the course of which it is first ensured that the many Afghan aid workers are brought to safety. -

Herein lies the greatest failure of the United States, and with it Biden, too: that so many who stood on America's side are now being left in the lurch. On the one hand, this will shake the trust of current and potential future allies around the world. On the other hand, the USA's claim to leadership, at least in terms of self-perception, has always been a moral one. This has been forfeited for the time being.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

On the one hand, it looked as if Biden, like a bad loser, was pointing his finger at an apparently unwilling army in order to shift the blame from itself. On the other hand, there is also something to it. The Americans worked hard to train the Afghan army. They invested billions of dollars and provided the equipment. The Afghan army and national police comprised 300,000 soldiers; they outnumbered the Taliban by more than four times. Could it really be expected that they would offer next to no resistance? -

Yeah, this isn't Biden's fault, it's not Trump's fault. It's the primitives in the general Afghan population who allowed this to happen. They had 20 years to learn how to run a civilized country and obviously they just aren't cut out for it. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. They don't want it.

Biden has been the White House's most experienced foreign policy maker for at least half a century. He saw the end of the Vietnam War as a young senator. Even so, he was told not to have learned anything from history. That's not true.

Ha!


Robert Gates, who served as defense secretary for the Bush and Obama administrations, said in his memoir that Biden has "been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades."

Yeah, that's pretty obvious. Biden has always been a mediocre party hack and he has not improved with age.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I had to read twice to believe this.
[...] when that transport started again, it evacuated the record number of - seven people. Five Germans, a Dutch and an Afghan.

To transport more than eight persons in Germany you would have needed a special license for transporting people, the Taliban probably demanded this

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Yeah, this isn't Biden's fault, it's not Trump's fault. It's the primitives in the general Afghan population who allowed this to happen. They had 20 years to learn how to run a civilized country and obviously they just aren't cut out for it. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. They don't want it.

What an ignorant thing to say.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Dowly

What an ignorant thing to say.

Sorry, but it's true.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

US President Joe Biden defends decision to pull out of Afghanistan.

Biden admits events developed quicker than he thought and blames Afghan leaders for the collapse.

Afghans left behind are speaking of the terror on the ground.

Military flights evacuating diplomats and civilians have re-started at Kabul's airport.

Officials say it is a much quieter scene on Tuesday, but witnesses report occasional gunfire.

At least five people were reportedly killed at the airport on Monday as thousands tried to flee.

Some tried to cling on to planes - human remains were reportedly found in the wheel well of one US aircraft.

Biden forgot to run a "what if" scenario. Then again, Biden forgets a lot. However, he never put any blame on himself. I'm sure in the coming weeks it will be painted as an orderly evacuations that simply got out of hand.

[Skybird]

A strong picture. Look at the expression on the Afghan man's face.



Neal, it was naive to pump all that much money into Afghanistan, and to pay all those local warlords. They took the money - and then? Regional warlords did not use it to build infrastructure and schools, but kept it for themselves, and build palaces for themselves. And the last "president" is said to have fled from kabul in a helicopter packed full with - money.

And yes. One can argue that Afghanistan is not a country, not a nation. The lack of feeling a national identity and a resulting sense of loyalty, as was to be seen in the Afghan army, speaks volumes. Its a tribal society. "Nation" plays no role there. The influence and power of any government in Kabul, since I was at school, always ended at the city walls.
-

Biden must accept technical responsiblity for the circumstances of the situation now. The time pressure he was under, is Trump's work, Trump and his damn shallow careless "deals". The mess in all completeness is the work of four different administrations, all of them tapped blindly around in the Afghan maze. The only illumination was the shine of their enlightened illusions.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And yes. One can argue that Afghanistan is not a country, not a nation. The lack of feeling a national identity and a resulting sense of loyalty, as was to be seen in the Afghan army, speaks volumes. Its a tribal society. "Nation" plays no role there. The influence and power of any government in Kabul, since I was at school, always ended at the city walls.

This, exactly.


EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Biden forgot to run a "what if" scenario. Then again, Biden forgets a lot. However, he never put any blame on himself. I'm sure in the coming weeks it will be painted as an orderly evacuations that simply got out of hand.

Right and the pullout deal he negotiated putting a hard date on withdrawal was obviously badly done, oh wait, that was the former dealmaker in office.

[MGR1]

Originally Posted by Dowly

This, exactly.


EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?

Ditto.
The more curiosity has led me to study the Middle East, the more I've come to the conclusion it would be best to leave the inhabitants to their own devices. The only way change is going to occur is for it to happen from within the confines of the various local cultures. The West sticking it's nose in, for whatever reason, doesn't help bring about that change in any lasting way.

Mike.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Yeah, this isn't Biden's fault, it's not Trump's fault. It's the primitives in the general Afghan population who allowed this to happen. They had 20 years to learn how to run a civilized country and obviously they just aren't cut out for it. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. They don't want it.

Yeah, that's pretty obvious. Biden has always been a mediocre party hack and he has not improved with age.

I agree on the no fault zone for Trump and Biden. But, Biden should have conducted a "what if" scenario. Biden owns the disaster created in under 48 hours. As far as cut out for it, the Taliban is a well organized and equipped group. Afghan military recognized this as well as the locals. It would be all out fighting once again. And a losing battle at that. The Taliban was simply working the past 20 years for this day.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Right and the pullout deal he negotiated putting a hard date on withdrawal was obviously badly done, oh wait, that was the former dealmaker in office.

Sure it was badly done. You and I recognize it. The current commander and chief who is swift with a pen and executive orders, tops in foreign relations as we were sold could not let the date pass? Could not have recognized this is an issue with a firm date and simply say we are staying a bit longer we like the culture? We will get back to you with a firm removal date....maybe but keep quietly removing US personnel?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Dowly

This, exactly.


EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?

Damn fine point. Excellent question. It will take a generation or two to change a mind set.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dowly

This, exactly.


EDIT: I'd also add that for majority Afghans, especially rural males, their values aren't all too dissimilar to those of the Taliban. How do you bring democracy to a "country" like that, in a relatively short span of 20 years?

Yes.

However, most people living in Afganistan, are females. At least I seem to recall that females form a small majority. However, there are MANY girls and women. They do not get asked on anything.



I think its simply a hellhole to live in, to be honest.