NYGM 2.01 Super DD's issue ?

M_B1 · 07-04-06, 08:34 AM

Hi (I posted this in the sticky, but it doesn't seem to be getting much viewage)

Possible issue ?

I playing on 100% with NYGM 2.01 because its a great mod and I like my realsim. Thanks very much for the hard work.

So to my issue - this happened to me in my last game - what do you think ?

Its Jan 1940 right at the beginning of 'happy times' and I spot a convoy of 11+ merchants escorted by 4 screening vessels.

After managing to get infront of the convoy undetected I submerge to periscope depth and wait for the front escort to roll over me. Using the hydrophone I wait till its behind my boat before raising the scope, targeting a medium merchant and manouvering into a shooting position.

Minutes later one medium merchant explodes to the sound of two detonations.

Quickly I shift my target to a following large Merchant and loose another two torpedoes resulting in a satisfying chorus of explosions and a rapidly sinking vessel.

Now for my escape. So far I am undetected while through my scope I can see the night sky lit up by flares and the four escorts searching for the attacker. I set my course between two destroyers and move at slow and rigged for silent running.

20 minutes later after avoiding detection I am pinged. Oh well. I immediately crash dive to get depth before the 4 escorts get into an attack run and manage to get to 100 meters before the first charges begin to explode. All 4 escorts seem to be involved in the attack. I respond by twisting and turning and altering depth.

But can I shake them ? Not a hope.

Some two hours into the attack and my boat is devestated by charges. I lose all my tower equipment and just manage to prevent flooding. Fortunately my engines remain undamaged. I am really beginning to sweat now.

6 hours into the attack and the attackers finally run out of charges. Hooray ! I have survived ! Now to wait for them to leave and I can limp back to base.

But.

They don't leave. Ever.

They continue to ping and run attacks but with no charges. 24 (game)hours !!!!! after the first contact they are still pinging me every two minutes. My crew is so exhausted they cannot operate the engines and I have a few gasps of air remaining so the only thing I can do is emergency surface and surrender before my boat sinks to critical depth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
This doesn't seem right to me.

1: In 1940 all 4 escorts would not have abandoned their convoy to hunt a single sub for 24 hours, especially after all their munitions were gone. Hunter Killer doctrine wasn't adopted till much later in the war.

2: I doubt destroyers would hang around pinging after munitions were used up. They would attract every sub around with that amount of pinging and present quite a good target just sitting there.

3: There is absolutely no way to get away from 4 (1940) destroyers (unless there is something in the manual I haven't read). I tried every trick I know.

4: It was my first cruise, but I wouldn't expect my entire crew to be reduced to the point that they cannot operate the boat at all.

It does seem to be a bug to me unless I am missing something. Its Happy Times, but attacking a convoy seems suicide if you are detected.

Thoughts ?

I posted this on another site and it would appear this isn't just my experience.

irish1958 · 07-04-06, 08:56 AM

There are several threads about the Uber DD's. Try searching the SHIII forum and the SHIII mod forums (or is it fori ?).
I agree with your observation about stalking a lone sub. Four escorts would not leave a convoy unprotected for 24 hours while chasing a lone sub, especially since BDU now knows the location of the convoy and probably the speed and direction. In the last years of the war, air cover from escort carriers and sometimes float planes coupled with a abundance of DDs, this did occur and u-boats didn't last long.
irish1958

M_B1 · 07-04-06, 09:27 AM

Thanks

Ok I had a look round and it would seem that I'm going to have to improve my evasion technique. 1knt ahead slow it is.

Actually I like the added toughness.

However I would still expect the destroyers to protect their convoy, especially early in the war.

Keelbuster · 07-04-06, 11:22 AM

I've yet to encounter these uber escorts (using TW2.0). Once using RuB I got jumped by a flock of black swans, in late 44, in perfect weather, and had to use all my decoys, and every devious tactic to evade them. I lucked out on the coin toss and I made it. Another similar close call happened in my old favourite VIIB; more BS and close depth charges, seemingly no escape. But finally, with enough careful listening on the hydrophone, decoys and flank bursts, I made it.

But I've heard a lot about uber escorts...just can't vouch for it myself.

My new approach is to attack the escorts directly - my first attack on a convoy sinks the lead escort so I always have a way in. On my first exit (through the back) I attack the rear escort at zero gyro, knife-fight range. Seems to work pretty well. I'm sick of running from these b*stards - it's totally satisfying to reduce a convoy to a single escort (or better, none!). You can almost always escape a single escort with careful work.

Kb

bigboywooly · 07-04-06, 01:38 PM

Best way have found to escape so far is to dive the moment you have fired your torpedos
No faster than 2 knots - dont wait to see your explosion just go
Doesnt always work but you stand a greater chance of getting away if you are already silent - 1kt - and deep before torpedos strike home
Never crash dive as its like ringing the dinner bell to the escorts

Der Teddy Bar · 07-04-06, 08:05 PM

M_B1v,
Thankyou for your well thought out post.

Quote:

1: In 1940 all 4 escorts would not have abandoned their convoy to hunt a single sub for 24 hours, especially after all their munitions were gone. Hunter Killer doctrine wasn't adopted till much later in the war.

This is not anything that we have control over. The percentage of escorts that may or may not respond is hard coded.

Quote:

2: I doubt destroyers would hang around pinging after munitions were used up. They would attract every sub around with that amount of pinging and present quite a good target just sitting there.

If they have a lock on you they would, as they know that you must surface at sometime and they have bigger and better guns than you.

Quote:

3: There is absolutely no way to get away from 4 (1940) destroyers (unless there is something in the manual I haven't read). I tried every trick I know.

Thankfully this is not true. I am presuming that you may still be of the old mind set where ordering silent running enabled the SHIII Glingon Cloaking Device.

Please read these threads…
How to escape the Über-AI (NYGM2.0)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94201

In the immortal words of Ali G ‘Respect’, a new way of playing…
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93981

NYGM ruined my weekend
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94720

Crash Dive Blues!
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=92883

Quote:

4: It was my first cruise, but I wouldn't expect my entire crew to be reduced to the point that they cannot operate the boat at all.

If you are using SH3 Cmdr it may be that you do not have the NYGM Crew Management enabled?

Quote:

It does seem to be a bug to me unless I am missing something. Its Happy Times, but attacking a convoy seems suicide if you are detected.

I wonder how many players are aware that u-boat’s & submarines attacked predominately at night and on the surface. Convoy battles were a night time exercise.

U-boats are fragile and when submerged very limited in the ability to travel far or for that long.

They were not undetectable when submerged, but when a u-boat attacks on the surface then this is not an issue.

In the video interview with Jurgen Oesten he relays how in 1939 while submerged, inferring that he was just not found due to any previous action, he was detected and attacked by a lone destroyer.

He goes on to say that the destroyer was very accurate and that the destroyer knew exactly where he was. This destroyer gave his u-boat a massive work over with him eventually ending up on the bottom at 134 metres with his u-boat extensively damaged and unable to move. He also relates that the hull was buckled in from a depth charge that also knocked the port diesel engine off it mounts.

It is inferred to have been over many hours possibly in double figures. On the 3rd night they surfaced to find that a trawler had been left there to watch for the u-boat possibly surfacing!

In NYGM TW v2.1 you can get sometimes get within 800 metres of an escort and not be detected.

I hope that this helps.

THE_MASK · 07-04-06, 08:18 PM

Play as though you have a gun pointed at your head if you die .

M_B1 · 07-05-06, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

M_B1v,
Thankyou for your well thought out post.

Quote:

1: In 1940 all 4 escorts would not have abandoned their convoy to hunt a single sub for 24 hours, especially after all their munitions were gone. Hunter Killer doctrine wasn't adopted till much later in the war.

This is not anything that we have control over. The percentage of escorts that may or may not respond is hard coded.

Quote:

2: I doubt destroyers would hang around pinging after munitions were used up. They would attract every sub around with that amount of pinging and present quite a good target just sitting there.

If they have a lock on you they would, as they know that you must surface at sometime and they have bigger and better guns than you.

Quote:

3: There is absolutely no way to get away from 4 (1940) destroyers (unless there is something in the manual I haven't read). I tried every trick I know.

Thankfully this is not true. I am presuming that you may still be of the old mind set where ordering silent running enabled the SHIII Glingon Cloaking Device.

Please read these threads…
How to escape the Über-AI (NYGM2.0)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94201

In the immortal words of Ali G ‘Respect’, a new way of playing…
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93981

NYGM ruined my weekend
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94720

Crash Dive Blues!
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=92883

Quote:

4: It was my first cruise, but I wouldn't expect my entire crew to be reduced to the point that they cannot operate the boat at all.

If you are using SH3 Cmdr it may be that you do not have the NYGM Crew Management enabled?

Quote:

It does seem to be a bug to me unless I am missing something. Its Happy Times, but attacking a convoy seems suicide if you are detected.

I wonder how many players are aware that u-boat’s & submarines attacked predominately at night and on the surface. Convoy battles were a night time exercise.

U-boats are fragile and when submerged very limited in the ability to travel far or for that long.

They were not undetectable when submerged, but when a u-boat attacks on the surface then this is not an issue.

In the video interview with Jurgen Oesten he relays how in 1939 while submerged, inferring that he was just not found due to any previous action, he was detected and attacked by a lone destroyer.

He goes on to say that the destroyer was very accurate and that the destroyer knew exactly where he was. This destroyer gave his u-boat a massive work over with him eventually ending up on the bottom at 134 metres with his u-boat extensively damaged and unable to move. He also relates that the hull was buckled in from a depth charge that also knocked the port diesel engine off it mounts.

It is inferred to have been over many hours possibly in double figures. On the 3rd night they surfaced to find that a trawler had been left there to watch for the u-boat possibly surfacing!

In NYGM TW v2.1 you can get sometimes get within 800 metres of an escort and not be detected.

I hope that this helps.

Thanks for the reply.

I just didn't read enough as usual. I understand now.

..... its much better by the way, well done on the mod.

07-04-06, 08:34 AM	#1
M_B1 Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	NYGM 2.01 Super DD's issue ? Hi (I posted this in the sticky, but it doesn't seem to be getting much viewage) Possible issue ? I playing on 100% with NYGM 2.01 because its a great mod and I like my realsim. Thanks very much for the hard work. So to my issue - this happened to me in my last game - what do you think ? Its Jan 1940 right at the beginning of 'happy times' and I spot a convoy of 11+ merchants escorted by 4 screening vessels. After managing to get infront of the convoy undetected I submerge to periscope depth and wait for the front escort to roll over me. Using the hydrophone I wait till its behind my boat before raising the scope, targeting a medium merchant and manouvering into a shooting position. Minutes later one medium merchant explodes to the sound of two detonations. Quickly I shift my target to a following large Merchant and loose another two torpedoes resulting in a satisfying chorus of explosions and a rapidly sinking vessel. Now for my escape. So far I am undetected while through my scope I can see the night sky lit up by flares and the four escorts searching for the attacker. I set my course between two destroyers and move at slow and rigged for silent running. 20 minutes later after avoiding detection I am pinged. Oh well. I immediately crash dive to get depth before the 4 escorts get into an attack run and manage to get to 100 meters before the first charges begin to explode. All 4 escorts seem to be involved in the attack. I respond by twisting and turning and altering depth. But can I shake them ? Not a hope. Some two hours into the attack and my boat is devestated by charges. I lose all my tower equipment and just manage to prevent flooding. Fortunately my engines remain undamaged. I am really beginning to sweat now. 6 hours into the attack and the attackers finally run out of charges. Hooray ! I have survived ! Now to wait for them to leave and I can limp back to base. But. They don't leave. Ever. They continue to ping and run attacks but with no charges. 24 (game)hours !!!!! after the first contact they are still pinging me every two minutes. My crew is so exhausted they cannot operate the engines and I have a few gasps of air remaining so the only thing I can do is emergency surface and surrender before my boat sinks to critical depth. -------------------------------------------------------------------- This doesn't seem right to me. 1: In 1940 all 4 escorts would not have abandoned their convoy to hunt a single sub for 24 hours, especially after all their munitions were gone. Hunter Killer doctrine wasn't adopted till much later in the war. 2: I doubt destroyers would hang around pinging after munitions were used up. They would attract every sub around with that amount of pinging and present quite a good target just sitting there. 3: There is absolutely no way to get away from 4 (1940) destroyers (unless there is something in the manual I haven't read). I tried every trick I know. 4: It was my first cruise, but I wouldn't expect my entire crew to be reduced to the point that they cannot operate the boat at all. It does seem to be a bug to me unless I am missing something. Its Happy Times, but attacking a convoy seems suicide if you are detected. Thoughts ? I posted this on another site and it would appear this isn't just my experience.

07-04-06, 08:56 AM	#2
irish1958 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 3,250 Downloads: 320 Uploads: 11	Uber DD's There are several threads about the Uber DD's. Try searching the SHIII forum and the SHIII mod forums (or is it fori ?). I agree with your observation about stalking a lone sub. Four escorts would not leave a convoy unprotected for 24 hours while chasing a lone sub, especially since BDU now knows the location of the convoy and probably the speed and direction. In the last years of the war, air cover from escort carriers and sometimes float planes coupled with a abundance of DDs, this did occur and u-boats didn't last long. irish1958

07-04-06, 11:22 AM	#4
Keelbuster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: BA 72 Posts: 1,092 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I've yet to encounter these uber escorts (using TW2.0). Once using RuB I got jumped by a flock of black swans, in late 44, in perfect weather, and had to use all my decoys, and every devious tactic to evade them. I lucked out on the coin toss and I made it. Another similar close call happened in my old favourite VIIB; more BS and close depth charges, seemingly no escape. But finally, with enough careful listening on the hydrophone, decoys and flank bursts, I made it. But I've heard a lot about uber escorts...just can't vouch for it myself. My new approach is to attack the escorts directly - my first attack on a convoy sinks the lead escort so I always have a way in. On my first exit (through the back) I attack the rear escort at zero gyro, knife-fight range. Seems to work pretty well. I'm sick of running from these b*stards - it's totally satisfying to reduce a convoy to a single escort (or better, none!). You can almost always escape a single escort with careful work. Kb __________________

07-04-06, 01:38 PM	#5
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Best way have found to escape so far is to dive the moment you have fired your torpedos No faster than 2 knots - dont wait to see your explosion just go Doesnt always work but you stand a greater chance of getting away if you are already silent - 1kt - and deep before torpedos strike home Never crash dive as its like ringing the dinner bell to the escorts __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

07-04-06, 09:27 AM	#3
M_B1 Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thanks Ok I had a look round and it would seem that I'm going to have to improve my evasion technique. 1knt ahead slow it is. Actually I like the added toughness. However I would still expect the destroyers to protect their convoy, especially early in the war.

07-04-06, 08:18 PM	#7
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	Play as though you have a gun pointed at your head if you die .