[TEC] Some aircraft AI tests/questions

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

I am afraid it was the other way around. Remember that most of the times an U-boat was intercepted by an enemy aircraft, she was sailing on the surface. Due to aircraft's speed, the submarine had a short time for submerging and avoiding the attack, so reaching max diving depth was out of question. Actually, one of the problem of early air depth charges is that their pistol was set too deep; they exploded too far below U-boat's keels and little damage was done. Experience and more accurate calculations led the British to reduce this depth setting. Let me find the source(s) that I took this information from and I will post the link here.

I know, sorry for being unclear: this remark about simulating shallow settings was about shipborne DCs at beginning of the war (I remember players complaining in the past that in 1939 British destroyers can sink their boat even at 150-200m, despite in real life British having at this point no idea German boats can dive that deep). But again, thinking about this: simulating enemy lack of knowledge while player does have hindsight is not entirely fair

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

I know, sorry for being unclear: this remark about simulating shallow settings was about shipborne DCs at beginning of the war (I remember players complaining in the past that in 1939 British destroyers can sink their boat even at 150-200m, despite in real life British having at this point no idea German boats can dive that deep).

No matter how many complain about that, all the SH shipborne DCs since at least SHIII don't get their maximum detonation depth parameter applied; they behave as if they were proximity fuzed, and without access to the game code there is little we can do about it.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

But again, thinking about this: simulating enemy lack of knowledge while player does have hindsight is not entirely fair

Well, in the case of air DC's I don't think this initial lack of knowledge by the British can be exploited by the player. Unless you cheat with the external camera, when you see an aircraft on the horizon you never know its armament. It might carry depth charges, regular bombs, torpedoes, guns, cannons and rockets in various combinations so, no matter how wrong were initial British calculations on depth bombs' most effective detonation depth, if you don't want to risk a too erly patrol end or, even worse, an abrupt campaign end, your best strategy won't change: dive as fast as you can!

[Jeff-Groves]

This is where I got the K-Ship 3D model a ways back.
I got written permission at that time and have the original files and textures.
http://www.alteredearth.com/airship.htm

I believe even in GWX the K-ship will fall out of the sky if it drops below a certain speed.
Took me quite a while to get it working as it does for SH3.
It was the mod I was working on at the time that got me invited to join The Grey Wolves Team.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

This is where I got the K-Ship 3D model a ways back.
I got written permission at that time and have the original files and textures.
http://www.alteredearth.com/airship.htm

Amazing model indeed, but having only seen the renders I would say that it is way too high on poly count for our game. I am afraid that making that model "game-ready" would involve more work than it is worth.

What do you think Jeff? Shouldn't we stick to your own model instead? And if yes, after more than ten a decade from when you created it, is there any field where we could improve it, maybe taking inspiration from the K-74 model by Farley & Skinner?

[Jeff-Groves]

It's actually not that bad for poly count!
Most of the high counts are internal parts that can be removed as You will never see those parts.
A rough test model with some internals removed reduced the polys to 63238 or so.
That can be reduced further by selective remove of more unneeded parts.
The basic out side stuff is really not that bad.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I believe even in GWX the K-ship will fall out of the sky if it drops below a certain speed.
Took me quite a while to get it working as it does for SH3.

I can imagine that. After all SH's AI was not done for handling airships and, for that matter, even more traditional aircraft fall down at times with no reasonable reason lol

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

It's actually not that bad for poly count!
Most of the high counts are internal parts that can be removed as You will never see those parts.
A rough test model with some internals removed reduced the polys to 63238 or so.
That can be reduced further by selective remove of more unneeded parts.
The basic out side stuff is really not that bad.

[Jeff-Groves]

Also. Seeing as a LOT of GR2 files are modded with a Loose import?
(Which We all know does incredible file size growth.)
Is it really that much of a difference on file size?
You also have to consider I can BY PASS the loose import for a better fit and thus a smaller file.

If I'm not mistaken? The K-ship in GWX is the largest dat in the Air folder.

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I believe even in GWX the K-ship will fall out of the sky if it drops below a certain speed.

Originally Posted by gap

I can imagine that. After all SH's AI was not done for handling airships and, for that matter, even more traditional aircraft fall down at times with no reasonable reason lol

If there was one situation where SH5 weird physics can be of some help, this is it:

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

If there was one situation where SH5 weird physics can be of some help, this is it

According to Wikipedia, K-class blimps had a cruise speed of 93 km/h (50 kn) and a maximum speed of 125 km/h (68 kn). What was PBY's speed during your tests?

EDIT: I wonder if wing shape and area have an effect on SH5's aircraft physics

[Jeff-Groves]

In GWX, there are hidden wings.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

In GWX, there are hidden wings.

Yes, I suppose that invisible wings will be needed in SH5 as well.

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

According to Wikipedia, K-class blimps had a cruise speed of 93 km/h (50 kn) and a maximum speed of 125 km/h (68 kn). What was PBY's speed during your tests?

I randomly set 30 kn as maximum speed and 10 kn as minimum speed. I don't see a reason why you couldn't set, say, 1 kn as minimum.

Originally Posted by gap

EDIT: I wonder if wing shape and area have an effect on SH5's aircraft physics

I don't think so, considering that defining one of plane's machine gun barrels as left wing in Goblin does absolutely nothing to its ability to stay in the air.

EDIT: From what I see, it seems to be very simple: engine power and mass affect speed, so does turning and damage. If speed falls below stall speed ("minimum speed"), plane falls. If hitpoints drop to zero, it explodes and falls.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

I randomly set 30 kn as maximum speed and 10 kn as minimum speed. I don't see a reason why you couldn't set, say, 1 kn as minimum.

I don't think so, considering that defining one of plane's machine gun barrels as left wing in Goblin does absolutely nothing to its ability to stay in the air.

EDIT: From what I see, it seems to be very simple: engine power and mass affect speed, so does turning and damage. If speed falls below stall speed ("minimum speed"), plane falls. If hitpoints drop to zero, it explodes and falls.

Yes, it all makes sense. Engine damage might decrease speed; wing damage might increase minimum speed. If that was true, we should set the gondola as the main fuselage, and the balloon itself as the wing with a disproportionately high hitpoint value, so that damaging it will decrease blimp's buoyancy (but making it to fall down would take an impossible amount of AA bullets).

EDIT:

After all, it shouldn't be impossible for an U-boat to set those hard-asses of fire, thus making them to collapse into the sea:

Originally Posted by https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/wwii-submarine-hunting-blimps/

One of the airships’ most famous battles came on the coast of Florida when the K-74 spotted a German sub [...].

Unfortunately, the submarine crew spotted the attacking airship and lit the low-flying vessel up with the sub’s anti-aircraft guns while the airship dropped two depth charges.

The consequences were immediate and severe for the blimp. The air envelope was severely damaged and set on fire by the German guns. The crew was able to extinguish the fire, but they could not maintain altitude and slowly settled into the sea.

The envelope shouldn't explode though since, as with every US airship, it was filled with helium rather than with the highly explosive hydrogen.