Afghanistan deadline

Skybird · 02-24-21, 03:52 PM

No, things are not that much improved at all. The early advancments have been totally reversed already. Civil rights. Woimen equality and freedoms. Girl schools. Anti-corruption. Training fo their army and security. It all is reversed, partially already back on the levels before 2001. Afghanistan is a giant drug producer, still.

And worst of it: whatever there is that you see as advances - it only lives under the protection of Western guns, and where these guns are present.

That now the US had negotiated already with the Taleban about US withdrawel shows how successful the mission was! The Taleban cannot be reformed. A pro Wetsenr givernment will live without Wetsenr protection for as long, probaly shorter than ther pro-Sovjet government did aftere the Sovjets pulled out.

I have always called Afghansitan and Iraq 2003 strategic defeats of the US. And I stick to that. And worst: you never have had a chance to "win", becasue the Us potlicians as well as the European potlicians enver have really udnerstood what they are dealing with, and what Afghanistan is.

Go on, stay for another generation if you want, create this beacon of dmeocracy that Bush already dreamed of. You will not succeed.

Thats not my bad wishing, or hoping for the worst. It simply is the reality of having bitten off more than one can chew.

The hunt for Osama - understandable, and all the war associated with it. I would have done the same, thogzu differently. But i would have pulled out once that objecitve had been acchieved. It was the only clearly defined objective in the whole Afghanistan mess ever: find and kill Osama Bin Laden.

Instead nation building. Faile din iraq. Failed in Afghanistan. Failed in some many other places.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...-the-war-index

Quote:

The Russians were not aware that during a decade of conflict, Afghanistan’s already high war index had jumped from 4.65 to 6.53. Faced with that extreme drive of angry young men, it was the Communist superpower that gave up the fight.
(...)
When American troops went into battle in 2001, Afghanistan’s war index was higher than ever. No matter how many smart bombs America and NATO dropped, Afghan forces grew stronger. The West was still not aware it was battling demographics. With an average of seven to eight children being born to each woman, Afghan insurgents could easily replace their losses.
(...)
So President Trump has good reason to feel uneasy about Afghanistan. Today Afghanistan’s pool of warriors numbers above 5 million; the country’s war index is almost 6.0.

These are very reelevant considerations. So relevant that the author was asked to teach them until 2020 at NATO Defence College in Rome. Without an understanding of the logic behind the war index, you cannot make competent decisions about when to start a war - and when better not.

Aktungbby · 02-24-21, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

One wonders if the ChiComs, having observed the Russian and motor out across the bridge, and the DamnedYankees make a muck of the Middle East generally, incl. Iran Iraq and Syria, & Yemen would even care to try their greedy hand

..."two outta three" having been bad. Our stabilizing skill was gone way back in 'Nam!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

That now the US had negotiated already with the Taleban about US withdrawel shows how successful the mission was! The Taleban cannot be reformed. A pro Wetsenr givernment will live without Wetsenr protection for as long, probaly shorter than ther pro-Sovjet government did aftere the Sovjets pulled out.

I have always called Afghansitan and Iraq 2003 strategic defeats of the US. And I stick to that. And worst: you never have had a chance to "win", becasue the Us potlicians as well as the European potlicians enver have really udnerstood what they are dealing with, and what Afghanistan is.
The hunt for Osama - understandable, and all the war associated with it. I would have done the same, thogzu differently. But i would have pulled out once that objecitve had been acchieved. It was the only clearly defined objective...

PRECISELY! it was Mr Bin Laden who once stated

Quote:

American soldiers are 'paper Tigers'...

...perhaps he wasn't far off the mark.

and considerably kinder than "suckers and losers" as described by the Commander in Chief Trump!!??

Rockstar · 02-24-21, 05:09 PM

Only way we get rid of the Taliban is to round them up and start gassing. But ummm we don't do that. So, seeing as how the Taliban are there we have to negotiate, including the two leading Afghan political parties who at the time are not inclined to invite the Taliban to the table. Either they start working together or we stay past May 1st. By 'we' I mean NATO and U.S. forces as both Biden and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg have stated. Europe has just as much an interest in a stable Afghanistan as anyone else.

I want to add that its not just the U.S. which open to negotiation with the Taliban either.

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/...ntra-afghan_en

blackswan40 · 08-24-21, 07:59 AM

Isis Al Hawl refugee camp isis women and children in Seria children being radicalised and the clocks ticking

the deadline is August 31 is that Usa or Afganhistan Time the last two days will be for the US/Allied military to bug out

what comes after the daily executions and stonings in the town square

911 the 20th anniversary rememberance day will Isis attend in some sort of campacity it wont be the first time history has repeated its self
May 10th German Blitzkreig on the west then through the Arden and again 16th December 1944

You cant negotiate with a terorist who hates the west they are like a terminator.

Taliban dictating to America no no no no extesion to the deadline out by 31 August or there will be repercussions and no responce from America

Ex British Army Officer/MP Addresses the House

Onkel Neal · 04-18-21, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

No, things are not that much improved at all. The early advancments have been totally reversed already. Civil rights. Woimen equality and freedoms. Girl schools. Anti-corruption. Training fo their army and security. It all is reversed, partially already back on the levels before 2001. Afghanistan is a giant drug producer, still.

And worst of it: whatever there is that you see as advances - it only lives under the protection of Western guns, and where these guns are present.

That now the US had negotiated already with the Taleban about US withdrawel shows how successful the mission was! The Taleban cannot be reformed. A pro Wetsenr givernment will live without Wetsenr protection for as long, probaly shorter than ther pro-Sovjet government did aftere the Sovjets pulled out.

I have always called Afghansitan and Iraq 2003 strategic defeats of the US. And I stick to that. And worst: you never have had a chance to "win", becasue the Us potlicians as well as the European potlicians enver have really udnerstood what they are dealing with, and what Afghanistan is.

Go on, stay for another generation if you want, create this beacon of dmeocracy that Bush already dreamed of. You will not succeed.

Thats not my bad wishing, or hoping for the worst. It simply is the reality of having bitten off more than one can chew.

The hunt for Osama - understandable, and all the war associated with it. I would have done the same, thogzu differently. But i would have pulled out once that objecitve had been acchieved. It was the only clearly defined objective in the whole Afghanistan mess ever: find and kill Osama Bin Laden.

I wish I had written this.

Pull out the troops, let them descend into savagery again. We tried.

Rockstar · 04-18-21, 09:17 AM

"I will not pass this responsibility to a fifth."

Quote:

Suddenly US President Joe Biden “has decided” to pull troops from Afghanistan, something which was apparently a “bad idea” when Donald Trump proposed withdrawal from Afghanistan May 1st.

Yes on September 11th 2021 it seems Biden will bring back the remaining known 2,500 U.S. troops home. What he didn't say is we are privatizing the war using the tens of thousands remaining civilian contractors, mercenaries and CIA operatives. Our job is not done.

Quote:

Historian and political commentator Dan Lazare said many US policymakers remained determined to preserve their base in Central Asia offered by Afghanistan in the hope of using it to try and destroy the unity of China.
“America will lose a Central Asia outpost from which to influence events in neighboring Xinjiang,” Lazare told Sputnik. “CIA armchair strategists are concerned because the dismemberment of China remains the ultimate US goal.”

https://eurasiantimes.com/us-fears-l...ssia-analysis/

Also, lets face it there is TRILLIONS of dollars worth of known mineral wealth to secure in them thar hills too!

vienna · 04-18-21, 10:07 AM

The Afghan pullout is yet another "no win" situation for yet another US President; back when Obama announced the pullout of troops for Iraq, the howls from GOP leaders over how he was 'compromising US security' were loud and long; what they seemed to avoid noting is that the decision to withdraw and the establishment of a deadline were both made by President GW Bush, just prior to leaving office; Obama was faced with either honoring the US commitment to withdraw imposed by Bush or to rescind the decision; if he honored, the GOP would howl about compromising us security; if he rescinded, the GOP would howl about Obama going back on a US commitment and that he was exercising overt Presidential authority; it was just damned if you do, damned if you don't...

The same applies now; if Biden pulls out the troops as T**** ordered, the GOP howls about compromised security; if Biden rescinds, the GOP howls about Biden keeping us in a no-win war, reneges on a stated US commitment, and is exercising overt Presidential powers; again damned if you do, and damned if you don't...

The GOP, in both cases, had the luxury of being able to criticize the actions of a new administration, sniping if you will, from the sidelines, while refusing to acknowledge the situation was the result of actions taken by their own standard bearers; in all of this, as in so many other areas where the GOP has been vociferous in criticism, the really nagging question is: Where are the viable GOP solutions, where are the viable GOP alternatives? Its one thing to stand by the side and criticize, but, in the end it is not real leadership, by any means; if you are going to forcefully criticize the actions or inaction of someone in a critical situation, you'd better have some sort of viable alternative(s); criticizing the firemen is a useless, needlessly distracting waste of time if you don't have another plan to stop the building from burning down...

<O>

Skybird · 04-18-21, 10:21 AM

The simple truth is, pulling out is the only intelligent option left. To base that decison on the security status or the state of things regarding pace, stability, human rights, is a guarantee that foreign troops will stay there until into the next century. Biden has correctly recognized this. There will never be a wanted Western model of society, and therefore these qualities will never be there.

And this could have been known from beginning on.

Biden said he is the fourth president now who has to deal with the pullout decision - and that he does not will to leave it to a fifth one. I miss the lacking applause for this statement - its shows class.

The US should have gone after Mullah Omar and Osama, and once they got them, get out. But no, that was not good enough, one had to talk about nation building and beacons of demoracy and all that ideals stuff disconnected from what could be acchieved in pragmatic reality.

The mission post-Mullah Omar and post-Osama never had a chance. I was based on lacking insight and knoweldge about the region - and megalomania.

Whats being done with the Afghans who worked as helpers and aides to the foreign troops? They are death candidates if they must stay.

mapuc · 04-18-21, 10:26 AM

They have rushed onto the scene without any plans on how to proceed.

Secondly-The biggest mistake USA and Soviet did was.....become friends with one part of the civilization/religious group

When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

Third
If you do not have the nerve to what it takes to gain almost 100 % control of the country you want to invade-then stay out.

Fourth
Most important of all have a reason to why you want to invade a country.

Markus

August · 04-19-21, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

That's really terrible invader advice there Markus.

All one would be doing with that strategy is making enemies both out of potential friends and neutrals. Ask the Germans how that works. Their universal brutality when they invaded the USSR forced the subjugated peoples of the satellite nations to side with the Reds who they detested with a passion, and with good reason. That took real effort! But it illustrates why the "kill them all and let God sort them out" method you suggest might not be a good strategy to adopt if one wants to win.

Catfish · 04-20-21, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by mapuc

When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

That's really terrible invader advice there Markus.

. ... (quote with what Germany did in Russia and so on ..)

All right, what else is indiscriminate area bombing of civilian targets like cities then?

Jeff-Groves · 04-19-21, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such.

Third
If you do not have the nerve to what it takes to gain almost 100 % control of the country you want to invade-then stay out.

So your saying KILL THEM ALL AND LET GOD SORT IT OUT.

Don't be coy just come right out and say it!

Now I might be wrong but.....
Ain't that the tack the Nazi's took way back? Just build ovens to deal with the un-wanted.

I have no respect for anyone that would exterminate without prejudice.

Rockstar · 04-18-21, 04:58 PM

You're right, we're back to the finger pointing right down party lines, again. But one thing is for certain we will never know if Trump would have followed through removing troops by May 1st. And we will never know what better relations with Russia could have been like or if it was even possible.

As for Biden's September 11th plan, that remains to be seen. He was pretty clear early on in his campaign he was against removing troops, so was the Pentagon, the CIA, the Generals and certain elected representatives invested in certain companies profiting from the conflict in Afghanistan.

September 11th is NOT written in stone. In fact it is a date conditional on several factors many of which gives Biden a lot of wiggle room and discretion. But we're only talking about 2,500 regular U.S. troops

Like I said a few posts above we may bring the 'known' regular troops back, but there will probably be as much as 10,000 or more civilian contractors that are there now will remain. Rumor control central said we will still be operating two bases there. Who's going to man them? I figure those contractors, which include the builders of cities and infrastructure and of course former vets, now guns for hire to continue to carry out our foreign policy goals.

As it stands now Russia has invested in Kabul with Arms, money, housing and cultural centers, China is trying hard to establish better trade with Afghanistan. There is oil, pipelines to India that need to be built, mining wealth to be excavated, and lots and lots lithium. We are not going to leave it too them.

Onkel Neal · 04-19-21, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vienna

The Afghan pullout is yet another "no win" situation for yet another US President; back when Obama announced the pullout of troops for Iraq, the howls from GOP leaders over how he was 'compromising US security' were loud and long; what they seemed to avoid noting is that the decision to withdraw and the establishment of a deadline were both made by President GW Bush, just prior to leaving office; Obama was faced with either honoring the US commitment to withdraw imposed by Bush or to rescind the decision; if he honored, the GOP would howl about compromising us security; if he rescinded, the GOP would howl about Obama going back on a US commitment and that he was exercising overt Presidential authority; it was just damned if you do, damned if you don't...

The same applies now; if Biden pulls out the troops as T**** ordered, the GOP howls about compromised security; if Biden rescinds, the GOP howls about Biden keeping us in a no-win war, reneges on a stated US commitment, and is exercising overt Presidential powers; again damned if you do, and damned if you don't...

The GOP, in both cases, had the luxury of being able to criticize the actions of a new administration, sniping if you will, from the sidelines, while refusing to acknowledge the situation was the result of actions taken by their own standard bearers; in all of this, as in so many other areas where the GOP has been vociferous in criticism, the really nagging question is: Where are the viable GOP solutions, where are the viable GOP alternatives? Its one thing to stand by the side and criticize, but, in the end it is not real leadership, by any means; if you are going to forcefully criticize the actions or inaction of someone in a critical situation, you'd better have some sort of viable alternative(s); criticizing the firemen is a useless, needlessly distracting waste of time if you don't have another plan to stop the building from burning down...

<O>

Funny, you didn't mention the Dems howling when Trump pushed for pulling out....

mapuc · 04-19-21, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Funny, you didn't mention the Dems howling when Trump pushed for pulling out....

Because
Biden = Good guy
Former President = Very bad guy

Markus

02-24-21, 05:09 PM	#3
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Only way we get rid of the Taliban is to round them up and start gassing. But ummm we don't do that. So, seeing as how the Taliban are there we have to negotiate, including the two leading Afghan political parties who at the time are not inclined to invite the Taliban to the table. Either they start working together or we stay past May 1st. By 'we' I mean NATO and U.S. forces as both Biden and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg have stated. Europe has just as much an interest in a stable Afghanistan as anyone else. I want to add that its not just the U.S. which open to negotiation with the Taliban either. https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/...ntra-afghan_en Last edited by Rockstar; 02-24-21 at 08:36 PM.

08-24-21, 07:59 AM	#4
blackswan40 GWX - KC Crash Test Dummy Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: IN THE STEEL SHARKS VIRTUAL OCEAN Posts: 2,784 Downloads: 612 Uploads: 31	Isis Al Hawl refugee camp isis women and children in Seria children being radicalised and the clocks ticking the deadline is August 31 is that Usa or Afganhistan Time the last two days will be for the US/Allied military to bug out what comes after the daily executions and stonings in the town square 911 the 20th anniversary rememberance day will Isis attend in some sort of campacity it wont be the first time history has repeated its self May 10th German Blitzkreig on the west then through the Arden and again 16th December 1944 You cant negotiate with a terorist who hates the west they are like a terminator. Taliban dictating to America no no no no extesion to the deadline out by 31 August or there will be repercussions and no responce from America Ex British Army Officer/MP Addresses the House __________________ Someone Had to Make the Tea Last edited by blackswan40; 08-24-21 at 09:08 AM.

04-18-21, 10:07 AM	#7
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,720 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The Afghan pullout is yet another "no win" situation for yet another US President; back when Obama announced the pullout of troops for Iraq, the howls from GOP leaders over how he was 'compromising US security' were loud and long; what they seemed to avoid noting is that the decision to withdraw and the establishment of a deadline were both made by President GW Bush, just prior to leaving office; Obama was faced with either honoring the US commitment to withdraw imposed by Bush or to rescind the decision; if he honored, the GOP would howl about compromising us security; if he rescinded, the GOP would howl about Obama going back on a US commitment and that he was exercising overt Presidential authority; it was just damned if you do, damned if you don't... The same applies now; if Biden pulls out the troops as T**** ordered, the GOP howls about compromised security; if Biden rescinds, the GOP howls about Biden keeping us in a no-win war, reneges on a stated US commitment, and is exercising overt Presidential powers; again damned if you do, and damned if you don't... The GOP, in both cases, had the luxury of being able to criticize the actions of a new administration, sniping if you will, from the sidelines, while refusing to acknowledge the situation was the result of actions taken by their own standard bearers; in all of this, as in so many other areas where the GOP has been vociferous in criticism, the really nagging question is: Where are the viable GOP solutions, where are the viable GOP alternatives? Its one thing to stand by the side and criticize, but, in the end it is not real leadership, by any means; if you are going to forcefully criticize the actions or inaction of someone in a critical situation, you'd better have some sort of viable alternative(s); criticizing the firemen is a useless, needlessly distracting waste of time if you don't have another plan to stop the building from burning down... <O> __________________ __________________________________________________ __

04-18-21, 10:21 AM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,707 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The simple truth is, pulling out is the only intelligent option left. To base that decison on the security status or the state of things regarding pace, stability, human rights, is a guarantee that foreign troops will stay there until into the next century. Biden has correctly recognized this. There will never be a wanted Western model of society, and therefore these qualities will never be there. And this could have been known from beginning on. Biden said he is the fourth president now who has to deal with the pullout decision - and that he does not will to leave it to a fifth one. I miss the lacking applause for this statement - its shows class. The US should have gone after Mullah Omar and Osama, and once they got them, get out. But no, that was not good enough, one had to talk about nation building and beacons of demoracy and all that ideals stuff disconnected from what could be acchieved in pragmatic reality. The mission post-Mullah Omar and post-Osama never had a chance. I was based on lacking insight and knoweldge about the region - and megalomania. Whats being done with the Afghans who worked as helpers and aides to the foreign troops? They are death candidates if they must stay. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 04-18-21 at 10:45 AM.

04-18-21, 10:26 AM	#9
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,553 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	They have rushed onto the scene without any plans on how to proceed. Secondly-The biggest mistake USA and Soviet did was.....become friends with one part of the civilization/religious group When you invade a country the entire population is your enemy and should be treated as such. Third If you do not have the nerve to what it takes to gain almost 100 % control of the country you want to invade-then stay out. Fourth Most important of all have a reason to why you want to invade a country. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

04-18-21, 04:58 PM	#13
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	You're right, we're back to the finger pointing right down party lines, again. But one thing is for certain we will never know if Trump would have followed through removing troops by May 1st. And we will never know what better relations with Russia could have been like or if it was even possible. As for Biden's September 11th plan, that remains to be seen. He was pretty clear early on in his campaign he was against removing troops, so was the Pentagon, the CIA, the Generals and certain elected representatives invested in certain companies profiting from the conflict in Afghanistan. September 11th is NOT written in stone. In fact it is a date conditional on several factors many of which gives Biden a lot of wiggle room and discretion. But we're only talking about 2,500 regular U.S. troops Like I said a few posts above we may bring the 'known' regular troops back, but there will probably be as much as 10,000 or more civilian contractors that are there now will remain. Rumor control central said we will still be operating two bases there. Who's going to man them? I figure those contractors, which include the builders of cities and infrastructure and of course former vets, now guns for hire to continue to carry out our foreign policy goals. As it stands now Russia has invested in Kabul with Arms, money, housing and cultural centers, China is trying hard to establish better trade with Afghanistan. There is oil, pipelines to India that need to be built, mining wealth to be excavated, and lots and lots lithium. We are not going to leave it too them. Last edited by Rockstar; 04-18-21 at 05:07 PM.