[WIP] "Lochinvar" Clyde puffer

[gap]

Thank you for your good suggestions Maciej and Jeff

I had not considered "squaring" chain links. Indeed that would enable the saving of 12 triangles per link - 1,488 in total. In terms of aesthetics, I find "pointy" links preferable but that's such a small detail that at the end I might decide to use this trick.

Modelling the lesser visible portions of that chain as 2D objects is an idea I had in mind, probably the best option in terms of poly reduction, but I need to check whether the transition between 2D and 3D links will be too evident.

Removing "back sides" is another idea I had. It might be used on more enclosed portions of the chain as a lesser drastic alternative than making them flat and mapping a simple chain texture on them, but selecting the right faces to be deleted, might be a long and tedious task.


@ Jeff

For now my plan is to import the Lochinvar in game as a GR2 unit, but I don't exclude a later port to the dat format, for SHIII fans to enjoy her too.

Such a conversion might bring some pro's, one of them being that we might bind the same link mesh to multiple nodes with different rotation/position settings. Again, the implementation of this elegant solution would involve some work, but it would be definitely worth all the effort.

Unfortunately multiple bone bindings are not managed by the granny format (or by GR2 Editor) as well as by the dat format and S3d. Another fine solution for exploiting the 'multiple mesh usage' trick might be importing the chain as a separate dat object and linking it to the main GR2 unit via eqp file or merge controller. It wouldn't cast any dynamic shadows, but probably those shadows wouldn't be very noticeable anyway

______

Changing completely of topic I have a new question guys. If memory serves, torpedoes, bombs and guns shells make actual 3D holes on GR2 units that one can see through. Should I model some basic interiors for the upcoming unit?

[Rosomaha]

Greetings, gap, and glad to see you.

I think you absolutely should not bother about this little thing-a chain in 3D execution. (You can make a solid long object with a simple cross-section, and make details-chain links using a texture).
And i will give you an example, i think very suitable, which should convince you of this.
Here is the “Vickers mgun Mk-5 mount” that I was started to make for a Torpedo boat for SH5, the old one, in SH4 that was too rough and simple, I wanted to make it more detailed. In addition, I had to try to adjust the geometry of the game model and its moving parts, the movement of which is simplified under the conditions of the game and based only on the rotation base and traverse of barrel blocks, so that it was most similar to the original and did not cause visual dissonance, because this turret in reality has a rather complex design and motor skills with many moving parts and the movement of articulated structures.. perhaps this adjustment was excessive, because all this turned out to be again inconspicuous in the game.

 

This is the final view, but before its start assembling it in GR2 and texturing it, it went through the maximum simplification and initially had even more details. But as I later saw the result in the game, the model could be safely-simplified cut back, for example, in these details:

 

and this is without prejudice to her appearance.. these MachineGun parts are too small.

Well. These are the closest screenshots in the game that I managed to make (with a resolution of 1920x1080):

 

Even in optics from a distance of 150-200 m from the submarine details are indistinguishable:

 

As I did not try to make out the pins of the hinges and other small details-in the game they were indistinguishable and invisible.

The length of your ship (66 ft) length - 20.08 m, the dimensions of Vosper (70-72 ft) length - 22.1 m. Approximately comparable. Look at Vosper and look at Vickers, then look at your ship and the chain – it will be a barely discernible "thread" in the game render. Do you need it made entirely in 3D, the beauty of which can be seen and appreciated only in the exported model in a 3D editor or viewer?
The weight of the entire final Vickers model cost 4070 faces, I think it could be safely reduced to 4000 without losing the visual, having the experience gained. This is a whole anti-aircraft mount that can be reused, for example, on some fairmile-d or others. similar to vosper*s if our develop the mtb shipyard in the game. You have one chain… In general, the choice is yours, gap.

*****
In addition, you can use such details as: a slightly convex door and the contours of the eluminators – you can simply bake them into a high-quality Normal map and Diffuse and remove the 3D details.
*****

Originally Posted by gap

If memory serves, torpedoes, bombs and guns shells make actual 3D holes on GR2 units that one can see through. Should I model some basic interiors for the upcoming unit?

For such small units, if they do not break into pieces (hull) - no. Getting a ship's torpedo into such a unit is almost impossible, even if someone wants to spend valuable torpedoes on it. In GR2, a ready-made 3D “Decals”is applied. By the way, on the test of my little Vosper, when firing these Decals appeared rarely, more often it just sank without waiting for them. And most often it was the underwater part. In 1 case of gunfire from 3 somewhere it was possible to notice them.

 

And in SH4 " holes” - yes - there is a sense to do the internal content, but the "holes" against the background of such small ships (although, i think, here you need to consider each ship separately, depending on different details: whether there are high large superstructures and how the frame models themselves look, etc. - perhaps in some cases 3d internal frames will look normal when damaged), as far as I remember, were so big that it is better without them, and I did not connect these damages on Vosper in SH-IV. And of course: all of the above is just my opinion.

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by Rosomaha

Well. These are the closest screenshots in the game that I managed to make (with a resolution of 1920x1080):

Mighty fine job there sir

Originally Posted by gap

Changing completely of topic I have a new question guys. If memory serves, torpedoes, bombs and guns shells make actual 3D holes on GR2 units that one can see through. Should I model some basic interiors for the upcoming unit?

You can do it (GrannyDamageDecals controller that is responsible for 3D holes has an option to assign interior mesh that will be visible through holes), though I don't recall any ship - modded or stock - using this possibility (as well as second option to set the hole shape that shells will tear in a hull - all ships have this field blank and use default holes).

On another note and related to earlier posts about sharing resources and plans - there seem to be several units currently in progress, perhaps (just a thought) we might use a sticky thread in SH5 Mods Workshop somewhat like this:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=97328

Such thread would contain list of WIP units currently being made and perhaps links to resources like plans or models available online in case a newcomer would like to give a try to creating a new unit. Plus, maybe some form of basic guide for importing units as the needed info is currently spread over many multi-page threads.

[gap]

Hi Rosomaha,

thank you for your feedback and glad to se you too. Your torpedo boat looks amazing, I hope her release date is not too far

Originally Posted by Rosomaha

I think you absolutely should not bother about this little thing-a chain in 3D execution. (You can make a solid long object with a simple cross-section, and make details-chain links using a texture).

That is one of the options I am considering for chain's horizontal sections which, after all, could be seen only from the top. Originally I had tried using a "bill-board" mesh also for the vertical part of that chain, but it is visible from many directions and even from a certain distance the result was quite poor.

The other option I will be considering, is assembling the whole chain as dat object, where the same 3D mesh can be used many times with negligible increase in file size and no increase in poly count

Originally Posted by Rosomaha

Do you need it made entirely in 3D, the beauty of which can be seen and appreciated only in the exported model in a 3D editor or viewer?

Well, at some point I might decide uploading my models on Sketchfab or similar website. For this reason and for my own pleasure, my models tend to be slightly more detailed than our game would require.

Once they are finished, cutting down unnecessary detail before game import is a relatively easy process.

Originally Posted by Rosomaha

In addition, you can use such details as: a slightly convex door and the contours of the eluminators – you can simply bake them into a high-quality Normal map and Diffuse and remove the 3D details.

Yes, good point. Take those 3D doors as "place holders". The will help me drawing the doors in the correct position within the texture and to bake a better AO map, but they are likely to be removed before import in game

Originally Posted by Rosomaha

For such small units, if they do not break into pieces (hull) - no. Getting a ship's torpedo into such a unit is almost impossible, even if someone wants to spend valuable torpedoes on it...

I do not plan making the hull of such a small boat to break apart, but some sub-parts like mast, cargo hold cover, lifeboat, vent cowls, funnel and maybe portions of the wheelhouse might be destroyable. My only concern about 3D damage decals, is them not to reveal... an emptiness made of air or water where there should be metal.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

You can do it (GrannyDamageDecals controller that is responsible for 3D holes has an option to assign interior mesh that will be visible through holes), though I don't recall any ship - modded or stock - using this possibility (as well as second option to set the hole shape that shells will tear in a hull - all ships have this field blank and use default holes).

Wow, I dind't remember that that controller had so many options. During recent gunnery trials I remember having seeing torn metal through the holes made on the hull and on the superstructure of the target ship (one of the stock merchants). Probably vanilla units don't have an interior mesh specified in their GrannyDamageDecals controller because most of them already have basic interior compartments included in their 3D model.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

On another note and related to earlier posts about sharing resources and plans - there seem to be several units currently in progress, perhaps (just a thought) we might use a sticky thread in SH5 Mods Workshop somewhat like this:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=97328

Such thread would contain list of WIP units currently being made and perhaps links to resources like plans or models available online in case a newcomer would like to give a try to creating a new unit. Plus, maybe some form of basic guide for importing units as the needed info is currently spread over many multi-page threads.

Good idea, but I suggest extending the scope of such a thread to game-related plans and 3D models in general, what do you think?

[Oby]

Holy smoke, this is fantastic. Gap, Kapuhy, Rosomaha, thanks for your efforts of keeping the game 'above water' and interesting. Incredibly cool.


It is often forgotten how much of a role these small vessels played during the war.

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Good idea, but I suggest extending the scope of such a thread to game-related plans and 3D models in general, what do you think?

Game-related as in this game or games in general? First is exactly what I had in mind, second would be a bit off topic for SH5 Mod Workshop forum.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Oby

Holy smoke, this is fantastic. Gap, Kapuhy, Rosomaha, thanks for your efforts of keeping the game 'above water' and interesting. Incredibly cool.

Thank you too Oby

Originally Posted by Oby

It is often forgotten how much of a role these small vessels played during the war.

I have no information of Clyde puffers lost due to U-boat attacks, nonetheless those small boats actually played an "official" role in the Battle of the Atlantic since a number of them was requisitioned and impressed in Royal Navy service as engined naval lighters. Moreover, between 1942 and 1945 a class of RN auxiliary vessels, the Victualling Inshore Craft was purpose-built after the plans of two typical puffers.

For more on that, the following website has a list of puffers and VICs with short stories and basic specs:

https://puffersandvics.org/

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Game-related as in this game or games in general? First is exactly what I had in mind, second would be a bit off topic for SH5 Mod Workshop forum.

SH-related of course

the possible subcategories that come to my mind are: ships/boats, submarines, aircraft, armaments (guns, mortars, racks, throwers, etc.), ordnance (bombs, depth charges, torpedos, rockets, mines, etc.), U-boat equipment, beacons (lighthouses, day marks, buoys, etc.), buildings and landscape features (ports, towers, churches, bridges, coastal defense emplacements, rocks, etc.)

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

T
SH-related of course

the possible subcategories that come to my mind are: ships/boats, submarines, aircraft, armaments (guns, mortars, racks, throwers, etc.), ordnance (bombs, depth charges, torpedos, rockets, mines, etc.), U-boat equipment, beacons (lighthouses, day marks, buoys, etc.), buildings and landscape features (ports, towers, churches, bridges, coastal defense emplacements, rocks, etc.)

That's exactly what I had in mind, making one place where new or returning modder could find both information on what is currently being done and resources/guides that will be useful in creating new assets (be it ships, planes, equipment or other things).

I'm a little short on time until Christmas, but then I'll try to compile links to resources I've found, and whatever useful hints I've learned on making SH5 units.

[Rosomaha]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

You can do it (GrannyDamageDecals controller that is responsible for 3D holes has an option to assign interior mesh that will be visible through holes), though I don't recall any ship - modded or stock - using this possibility (as well as second option to set the hole shape that shells will tear in a hull - all ships have this field blank and use default holes).

3d Holes-Decals is always a combination of two models (hole shape + hole model): these are objects from the files: Damage_Object.GR2 + Damage_Room.GR2, and no others.
Just my guess: this functionality was not completed by the SH5 developers as planned. Although, the assumption is that a certain variety of “Holes” was planned for different objects-materials. After all, in the Damages folder there are several more files (eventually useless) besides Damage_Object.GR2 and Damage_Room.GR2. For example, "Decals" for ice, at the same time, Icebergs do not have a controller for "Decals", and as a result, visible holes. If you even add it to .sim, you will see all the same familiar holes from Damage_Object.GR2 and Damage_Room.GR2. It looks like they are hardwired to the controller's operation in grannyloader.dll

Another depressing point that upsets me is that in SH5 3D, the holes on the ships disappear, this always manifests itself in ships with the hull breaking apart, after a critical destruction with breaking. Even in the old SH-4, half of the ships went to the bottom with visible damage that they received and it looked authentic.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Rosomaha

3d Holes-Decals is always a combination of two models (hole shape + hole model): these are objects from the files: Damage_Object.GR2 + Damage_Room.GR2, and no others.
Just my guess: this functionality was not completed by the SH5 developers as planned. Although, the assumption is that a certain variety of “Holes” was planned for different objects-materials. After all, in the Damages folder there are several more files (eventually useless) besides Damage_Object.GR2 and Damage_Room.GR2. For example, "Decals" for ice, at the same time, Icebergs do not have a controller for "Decals", and as a result, visible holes. If you even add it to .sim, you will see all the same familiar holes from Damage_Object.GR2 and Damage_Room.GR2. It looks like they are hardwired to the controller's operation in grannyloader.dll

Another depressing point that upsets me is that in SH5 3D, the holes on the ships disappear, this always manifests itself in ships with the hull breaking apart, after a critical destruction with breaking. Even in the old SH-4, half of the ships went to the bottom with visible damage that they received and it looked authentic.

I have not the game installed right now, so I can't check the files and settings you are mentioning. I will look closely into them as soon as I install back the game.

In the meanwhile, for uniformity with stock game, I would like to know is: do boats of a size comparable to "my" puffer include any basic 3D compartment as part of the main model? I am not too anxious to add any detailed interior, but I wouldn't like my model to look like an empty paper boat when her hull is damaged by a shell and, rather than metal compartments, you can see sea and sky through the holes

[gap]

Hi guys,

in the past weeks I have been collecting information on WWII-era puffers. I have identified 78 private-owned 20-m puffers and I managed to find funnel colors and house flag used by some of their owners. I would like to add those features, but before I do that I would like to hear from the most knowledgeables on naval history among you (Sailorsteve, Iambecomelife, are you there? ).

My doubts are:

I know military vessels and ships which sailed in convoys were painted either light grey or with camouflage patterns, but what about small coastal vessels? Were they repainted in plain color as the war approached, or they retained their original paint schemes?

From the little information I have, house flags could be hoisted on the main mast but apparently their usage is not subject to any strict regulation. My question is: how commonly they are used and how realistic would have been for a vessel to fly one in wartime, when it vivid colors could have unnecessarily given up own position to the enemy?

[Muckenberg]

Good day
I have to admit, I'm really looking forward to your ship. i really like your SH5 mods.
In my opinion, I would say that as the war continued, all the ships that served for the war effort were disguised. I'd say it was for their own safety.
But of course I can get confused.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by gap

Hi guys,

in the past weeks I have been collecting information on WWII-era puffers. I have identified 78 private-owned 20-m puffers and I managed to find funnel colors and house flag used by some of their owners. I would like to add those features, but before I do that I would like to hear from the most knowledgeables on naval history among you (Sailorsteve, Iambecomelife, are you there? ).

My doubts are:

I know military vessels and ships which sailed in convoys were painted either light grey or with camouflage patterns, but what about small coastal vessels? Were they repainted in plain color as the war approached, or they retained their original paint schemes?

From the little information I have, house flags could be hoisted on the main mast but apparently their usage is not subject to any strict regulation. My question is: how commonly they are used and how realistic would have been for a vessel to fly one in wartime, when it vivid colors could have unnecessarily given up own position to the enemy?

I don't think they were repainted as they were considered indispensibly expendible and 100 were ordered built: Clearly the keels tended be rust red (I just painted my cousins 40' Two masted steel hull ketch that a year ago-nuthin good goes outta style) https://puffersandvics.org/VIC_index.htm <viewed each on case by case basis In browsing the predominantly black and white photos during or near the end of WWII even the the B/W pics show no attempt at camouflage-the pilot house and stack are different from the black hull and the predominantly rust red keel colors: ie VIC 23 in 1942; just launched:
That said: the longer 85 ft VIC 63 is described in this photo as still wearing her wartime grey. <keel shows shade variation to hull

The puffers were typically divided into "shorehead" (or coastal) boats, with a maximum length of 66 ft, and "outside" (sea-going) boats, of 80 ft. The shorehead boats were within the dimensions of the Forth & Clyde Canal sealocks, making it possible for them to enter the inland waterway system, though the outside boats were more suited to the Atlantic conditions off the west coast.

Bottom line: the 66.8 Ft ones with safer shorehead 'inshore canal/waterway duty' need no camo; the 85 ft larger ones had wartime gray?? I cannot find any puffer sunk by enemy action...

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

I know military vessels and ships which sailed in convoys were painted either light grey or with camouflage patterns, but what about small coastal vessels? Were they repainted in plain color as the war approached, or they retained their original paint schemes?

Well, some time ago when I gathered data to model my coasters I recall finding this:

Peacetime

War

That's Earl Sigurd, cute Orkney steamer not much larger than puffers. Unfortulately I have no actual photo of wartime version, but according to German modeling site it seems to have been repainted into grey camouflage. Perhaps the site owner could be contacted for sources...

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by gap

Hi guys,

in the past weeks I have been collecting information on WWII-era puffers. I have identified 78 private-owned 20-m puffers and I managed to find funnel colors and house flag used by some of their owners. I would like to add those features, but before I do that I would like to hear from the most knowledgeables on naval history among you (Sailorsteve, Iambecomelife, are you there? ).

My doubts are:

I know military vessels and ships which sailed in convoys were painted either light grey or with camouflage patterns, but what about small coastal vessels? Were they repainted in plain color as the war approached, or they retained their original paint schemes?

From the little information I have, house flags could be hoisted on the main mast but apparently their usage is not subject to any strict regulation. My question is: how commonly they are used and how realistic would have been for a vessel to fly one in wartime, when it vivid colors could have unnecessarily given up own position to the enemy?

I agree with Aktungbby. Certain small coastal ships were less likely to be camo'd than oceangoing freighters, so I think you can get away with having them in civilian colors sometimes. Maybe give them a mix of camo & civilian schemes.