National socialism

[Bilge_Rat]

This is a fairly silly thread. The Nazis were not "socialists", they were "anti-socialists" as anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of German history would know.

The name "socialist worker's party" pre-dates Hitler joining the party. Hitler joined because the party wanted to avenge the humiliation of the Versailles treaty. He had no interest in left wing policies, he kept them when he became leader because it would be useful to gain power and to placate the left-wing of the party under ernst Rohm who controlled the SA.

Once Hitler gained power in 1933, Rohm actually wanted to implement "socialist" policies, namely nationalising big businesses, breaking up large landed estates and turning the German Army into a revolutionary force controlled by the SA. Big Business and the Army was aghast, but Hitler had no intention of following Rohm, instead Rohm was killed in 1934 and the entire left-wing was killed, jailed or thrown out of the Party.

After that, the Nazis became a very pro-business, anti-labour party, labor unions and strikes were outlawed, and worker protections were curtailed. Nazi economic policies were very pro-business and big businesses were garanteed huge profits by the Nazis re-armament policies.

-----

On the second point, again many historians have looked at this and there is no contest, in terms of men, women and children executed, liquidated, massacred or who died as a result of direct policies which were reasonably certain to cause their deaths, the Germans in twelve years between 1933-45 murdered around 3 or 4 times as many as the Russians managed to kill in thirty six years between 1917 and 1953 under Lenin and Stalin.

deaths under Hitler: around 12 million
deaths under Lenin and Stalin: between 3-4 million

[Skybird]

Sigh.

https://mises.org/library/why-nazism...m-totalitarian

https://mises.org/library/origins-nazism


I don't care that people do not like the source, or do not like von Mises. The man has the better arguments, and that is what counts. Neither the left nor the right likes von Mises and the school of Austrioans or libertarianism, because both "conservatives" as well as "socialists" know all too well that their rigging of politics and eocnomics cannot reahc and corrupot them and turn them into accomplices of riugged potlics as wre today have themn. And this neither the left nor the right will ever forgive libertarians. There is a reaosn why people prefering liberty and freedom are beign opursued by both right AND left regimes, and get dmeinsied by the crowds of both sides.



And that also is why some of you are sao allergic oin b eing rmeinded on that there is no principle difference between brown-red socialism and blood-red socialism.



To me, they are twin brothers of the same ancestry. Thats why they look so very much the same, and do so very much the same kind of violence and brutality, totalitarian centralism and planned life/living/actin and absolute control of all elvels of individual and communal life.

[ The basic work of von Mises where he described the fundaments of Austrian economics, is called "Human Action", because that is the one and only thing that all life and craving is about: what motivates us to do what kind of things: our acting. This and only this must be at the basis of any economic theory worth to be called that: a theory of economics. Von Mises understood this perfectly. But almost nobody understands that today: thats why the world today is economically and ecologically and financially standing where it stands. And where it stands, that is dangeorus grounds, to put it mildly ].

[mapuc]

I don't care whether they are left or right. Some of my friends say they are left and I mistake they say this because of the word sozialistische is a part the parties title.

I have read so much about this party, I've seen historian claim they were right wing and some other historian, who claim they belonged to the left.

What can be said about this party...it was a threat to the human race, which is enough for me.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

This is a fairly silly thread. The Nazis were not "socialists", they were "anti-socialists" as anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of German history would know.

The name "socialist worker's party" pre-dates Hitler joining the party. Hitler joined because the party wanted to avenge the humiliation of the Versailles treaty. He had no interest in left wing policies, he kept them when he became leader because it would be useful to gain power and to placate the left-wing of the party under ernst Rohm who controlled the SA.

Once Hitler gained power in 1933, Rohm actually wanted to implement "socialist" policies, namely nationalising big businesses, breaking up large landed estates and turning the German Army into a revolutionary force controlled by the SA. Big Business and the Army was aghast, but Hitler had no intention of following Rohm, instead Rohm was killed in 1934 and the entire left-wing was killed, jailed or thrown out of the Party.

After that, the Nazis became a very pro-business, anti-labour party, labor unions and strikes were outlawed, and worker protections were curtailed. Nazi economic policies were very pro-business and big businesses were garanteed huge profits by the Nazis re-armament policies.

-----

On the second point, again many historians have looked at this and there is no contest, in terms of men, women and children executed, liquidated, massacred or who died as a result of direct policies which were reasonably certain to cause their deaths, the Germans in twelve years between 1933-45 murdered around 3 or 4 times as many as the Russians managed to kill in thirty six years between 1917 and 1953 under Lenin and Stalin.

deaths under Hitler: around 12 million
deaths under Lenin and Stalin: between 3-4 million

The quote I posted earlier came from a modern day national socialist website and even they understand the ideology as something socialist in nature. However just because some take for instance people like Bernie or even Catfish may lean towards socialism or socialist ideals does not make them a bad person or a nazi.

What Is National Socialism?
Leon Trotsky
Written in exile in Turkey, June 10, 1933.
Translated from Russian and from German.
Appeared in several versions in various journals, first being The Modern Thinker, October 1933.
Last two paragraphs added as postscript November 2, 1933.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/tro...933/330610.htm

[August]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

deaths under Lenin and Stalin: between 3-4 million

Even if you can believe those estimates (I think it's more like 20-25 million) Lenin and Stalin didn't run the worlds only communist government. Estimates of total mass killings by ALL Communist regimes range as high as 160 million. If you want to accurately compare the relative dangers of two murderous ideologies then you should compare them equally.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_k...munist_regimes


At some point though the degree of deadliness becomes academic. I see no real difference at all between 1 or 10 million victims. Both numbers are completely terrible to contemplate.

[Bilge_Rat]

Of those deported or arrested for political reasons from 1921 onwards, the number
of deaths about which we have more or less reliable information seems to have been
about 3–3.5 million, of which about 1 million were shootings, 1–1.5 million deaths
of deportees (see note 60) and perhaps 1 million deaths of prisoners.

source: Michael Ellman, "Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments", Europe-Asia Studies, vol. 54, no. 7, 2002, pp1151-1172

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/ELM-Rep...Statistics.pdf

very good overview of all available sources.

Problem with a lot of estimates is that they lump in all deaths, not just victims of actual repression, but deaths from illness, famine as a result of social/economic policies, work accidents, deaths from wars, etc., all of which is fine if you are trying to figure out the total human cost of communism, but does not help if you are trying to compare the actual victims of the Nazis versus the Bolsheviks.

The other problem is that figures were overblown for Cold War propaganda purposes. During the Cold War, the U.S. was making the argument that the Commies were pure evil. Problem was, one of their key ally, Germany, was still being run by former Nazis who held many key posts in government, military and business until the mid-late 70s. So there was pressure to inflate the number of victims under Stalin so the West could say that "Yes the Nazis were bad, but the Commies are worse".

In fact, there is no comparaison, we have a pretty good idea of the total number the Germans murdered in 1933-45. The number is around 12 million, including 6 million jews and 2.5 million soviet POWs in 41-42. By contrast, the total number that the Soviets murdered in 1921-53 is around 3.5 million.

The Russian Commies were ruthless, but there was a political logic to their killings. The Germans under Hitler were just barbarians who killed entire populations for no valid reason.