Detecting Mast's?

[U-Cass]

I am a long time sub command player, been playing SHIII (finally a modern AOD) and finally picked up DW recently (sent off for manual).

Q. Are your masts detectable by the AI.

If not. Is this being addressed or are we stuck with it? Massive dissapointment if this is the case.

[Captain Norman]

Ive never been able to tell if thats the case, if ur sail shows, thats bad. Not sure about the masts though.

[XabbaRus]

Short answer no.

Is it being fixed. don't know.

Originally Posted by U-Cass

I am a long time sub command player, been playing SHIII (finally a modern AOD) and finally picked up DW recently (sent off for manual).

Q. Are your masts detectable by the AI.

If not. Is this being addressed or are we stuck with it? Massive dissapointment if this is the case.

Welcome.

Masts are not detectable...this is a known "thing" for quite a while now.

No...it's not being addressed and probably never will be.

[LuftWolf]

Should masts be detectable, in theory yes.

Knowing what I know about the DW engine, I'm glad they aren't, because we can get around this using other AI and player features, and inevitably given the lack of intricacy in the DW radar model, I'm not sure masts would ever be properly detectable...

All I'm saying is, there is far more to be dissappointed about in the stock release than this one specific issue, and far more to be happy about in the modded version of the game... so for me, this issue tends to be somewhat neutral "would be nice, but good it's not done at all than done wrong."

Cheers,
David

[XabbaRus]

Luft why are you glad they aren't detectable?

I am pretty sure they were in 688i and in SC. You must admit it was some quite fundamental ommission that they aren't detectable and thay we must resort to work arounds to do it.

Thing is like it has been said, it's not going to be fixed anytime soon. Though once SCS hand me the source code, which I'm sure they might when they receive my cheque I'll try and fix that one.


Hey there goes a pig.

[LuftWolf]

I'm not glad they aren't detectable... I'm glad they aren't detectable rather than having that feature be implimented poorly or incorrectly.

Based on the DW radar model, a mast would be instantly detected depending on range. The range at which that should happen 100% of the time is within (in my opinion... the airdales say they can see a periscope at 100nm with binoculars going 500kts at 20000ft and the bubbleheads say they run around for 300nm with the snorkle and periscope up and the airdales need to be told where to find them, so who the hell knows??? ) the range at which the submarine should have been detected by some other means.

In order to have masts be detectable in a reasonable way, there would have to be some actual radar modelling similar to the sonar modelling... at least thats my read on it. It's one thing for the AI to be able to play simply, but another for the player on other players to have instant ability to detect masts at great range. And then of course there is the whole issue of the AI not having masts at all...

At the end of the day, it's something I don't really pay much attention to... if I'm playing the game effectively this just doesn't really come up as an issue, and with some changes in the next LWAMI, being at PD or shallow at all is a risky endevour, so being in the position to have the mast up is itself dangerous, so that seems pretty good.

I think this is one of those issues that can obscure the larger context when people get to really debating it, all in all, given the way the DW sensors work, this can be abstracted into the sim fairly well.

Cheers,
David

[Mau]

Luftwolf,

Are we saying that the radar systems are detecting everything or almost and at any ranges.
Is that broken that much?

I hope not.
Are you talking in terms of size detectability or in terms of range.

And yes, I am in the Navy and even though it is possible to detect mast and pericope on radar by an MPA/helicopters, it remains a challenge and this inside 20NM.
By ship, you have to know where to look for visually (pretty much) and being focus on the navigational/surface radar with a competent operator.

[U-Cass]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

At the end of the day, it's something I don't really pay much attention to... if I'm playing the game effectively this just doesn't really come up as an issue, and with some changes in the next LWAMI, being at PD or shallow at all is a risky endevour, so being in the position to have the mast up is itself dangerous, so that seems pretty good.

When is the mod out and what is the current version?

[edit]
Also how do you play? When ESM indicator Red lower all masts?

[LuftWolf]

The radar/sensor models work fine, they just aren't sophisticated enough to deal with the kinds of issues that come up with mast detection (masts are a LOT smaller than ship or aircraft...).

LWAMI 3.02 is currently available at www.subguru.com .

LWAMI4, which is upgraded to the point of being an entirely new mod, will be available after it is completed and gone through a thorough testing period (I'm working on it daily... it represents over two months of work between Amizaur and myself on top of the work done for 3.02).

In terms of how I play, when I need to raise a mast I do, and then when I get my information, I lower it again. Like I said, being at PD depth is very dangerous, so whether the mast is up or not, you are at great risk being shallow. I just don't focus too much on the masts detectability, just all of the things I need to be doing other than be at 60ft staring at the ESM.

Cheers,
David

[Linton]

Found this on the net I havn't had time to read all of it.
http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td1801/ousbourn.pdf
Amizaur you might want to add this to your reading list

[mike_espo]

I have been doing testing on the mast issue with new patch. and LWAMI. It seems that at Snort depth(I play exclusively Kilos) that some detection by aircraft does happen. But unless I write a specific trigger/script for aircraft to attack, they don't:hmm:

I don't know if its a doctrine issue with aircraft or what.....it just seems that aircraft that detect with MAD, SAD or visual, just fly over me about 5 times then leave... even if ROE is Wartime for both....

[LuftWolf]

Its generally because the AI sometime can't classify contacts on MAD, only mark that there is something there.

If the AI can classify the contact, then it will engage it... perhaps I can give the AI aircraft a VERY short range visual sensor capable of seeing at depth so when they repeatedly overfly the same MAD contact they can get a good ID (since in real life, the aircraft TACCO would have tactical information that would tell him what the contact is, usually).

Once the torpedoes are done, and the TIW messages have been added to the missile transients, I'm going to tackle the aircraft and helicopters for LuftWolf vs. Air Units Round 3.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Should masts be detectable, in theory yes.

Knowing what I know about the DW engine, I'm glad they aren't, because we can get around this using other AI and player features, and inevitably given the lack of intricacy in the DW radar model, I'm not sure masts would ever be properly detectable...

All I'm saying is, there is far more to be dissappointed about in the stock release than this one specific issue, and far more to be happy about in the modded version of the game... so for me, this issue tends to be somewhat neutral "would be nice, but good it's not done at all than done wrong."

Cheers,
David

I couldn't have put it better myself.