The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged)

[gabeeg]

It's funny I would probably have been one of those multi-culti people carrying the flag of cultural/religious relativism a few years ago. I have become more and more frustrated by the Muslim peoples I had tried to defend. I had argued that it is not "Islam" that was the problem but Individuals or groups that were the problem. I had argued the reasons for decades of modern problems were combinations of culture, socio-economic disparity, western ignorance and arrogance, etc. I still believe these things to a large extent and I believe that they are indeed at the root of our current problems. Where I have changed is in my willingness to give a free pass to these "Islamic Cultures" (Arab, Turkic, etc.). Where are the Muslim voices for reason? Where are the calls from the leaders in these "cultures" for more tolerance and understanding? Where are Clerics that while believing they are oppressed or wronged, try to create dialog....or admit that they are any small part of any problem? Granted there are those that attempt these things but their voices are weak and lack conviction in most instances. Time and time again they say the right things for western consumption and something else for their own domestic audience. Where are the leaders and clerics that are taking risks for the cause of reason? Where are the leaders and clerics that are willing to give what what they demand from us? Is it Indeed the teachings of Islam that make these things so seemingly impossible?

I often hear of the wrongs of Judeo-Christian cultures, such as the Crusades and the Isreali oppression of Palestinians. That these histories are daily reality to Islamic nations and cultures and are a part of their cultural consiousness. What about Islam? For centuries they had ruled over large areas of once Christian nations. Still to this day there are large judeo-christian communities in Islamic lands. Have they always been treated with tolerance? Even today, what Islamic state can say that their Judeo-Christian populations are equal....none. From the worst where they are unwelcome, persecuted, murdered to the best where they are a sub-class not nearly equal in the eyes of the government or the courts, though they maybe tolerated and live thier lives generally unmolested. Where are the calls for this to be changed? I have heard nothing but apologists even from the most reform and liberally minded in the Islamic leadership. Is it political immaturity or something else, more deeply seated?

I have read recently a bit on Gandhi, where is the Islamic Gandhi? A person who agressively pursues to correct the wrongs done to his people but is just as unyielding in standing up to intolerance in his own peoples/nation? I do not want to believe that to be a true Muslim and a true voice tolerance and understanding are incompatible. I have read the greater part of the Koran (I have three separate translations) and for the most part do not see this imcompatibility. I have read troubling passages...(but I have read troubling passages in the bible) and also passage of tolerance especially for "Peoples of the Book". What I am coming to think is that maybe these areas I find so troubling are core beliefs that are unable to be taken in context to times or events in the past.

I don't know....I really don't but I am greatly frustrated and disapointed. I find it harder and harder to defend a people and religion that though greatly wronged and misunderstood...does little or nothing to justify this defence.

As an Armenian (American) myself I have always appreciated the stories of those Muslims that helped the Armenian people (Turk, Kurd or Arab) during the Genocide and used these great and good deads to argue that Islam was not the problem but the Turkish Government and its followers (sadly a large percentage of the population). I was proud when the U.S. and allies defended the Muslims of Kosovo and largely for the right reasons (Humanitarian). I am proud as an Armenian that one of Armenias few friends in this world is Muslim Iran. How do I reconcile these feeling?