The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged)

The Avon Lady · 06-16-06, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Somehow you are always a second ahead of me.

Any chance that you do play chess...?

Wanted to have done it yesterday, but football was against it.

I don't play chess and I don't like football.

No wonder I'm ahead of you!

The Avon Lady · 06-16-06, 05:36 AM

Skybird, someone wrote a letter to Melanie Phillips, which I think you'll appreciate. Maybe others will, too.

Quote:

June 11, 2006
The voice of beleaguered British sanity

I have been immensely touched and heartened by the steady stream of support and encouragement I have been receiving in response to my book Londonistan and my various articles and broadcasting appearances related to its publication. I am extremely grateful to everyone who has written. What is notable is that so many feel they are alone in thinking the way they do; but what is clear from such a reaction is that, on the contrary, there are many, many people who retain a strong sense of decency, conscience, and the ability to think straight, and who see very clearly what is going on and how it threatens our national survival. At a time when such people have effectively been politically disenfranchised, it is particularly important that they know they are not alone. In that spirit, I reproduce here a message I received today.

Quote:

I just want you to know that its so incredibly refreshing to know that there is someone in public arena to speak for those of us, who are increasingly fearful of the cultural and moral erosion we see in this country, as a result of a 'multi-cultural' society. I have never felt so compelled to write or contact someone as yourself, ever, ever before, until today, because I have simply had enough.
It amazes me greatly that people who are meant to be seen as rational, intelligent and highly educated cannot (or perhaps are too fearful) see that there is a great difference between being a racist who still lives in the dark ages and wishes for Britain to remain a white Anglo-Saxon society and those who are advocates of a British cultural and national identity.

My parents were among the many Nigerians who were sent to Britain by their parents in the 1960s to gain an education. My father qualified as a pharmacist from Cardiff University and my mother studied sociology and social policy at Birmingham. They had my brother and sister here, before returning to Nigeria in 1976, where my younger brother and I were born. They stayed in Nigeria from 1976 to 1985, where both my parents were finding it increasing difficult to live and survive in a country where corruption was necessary to maintain a particular lifestyle.

I clearly remember when my parents told my siblings and I that we were coming back to Britain, as my father's old employer had given him a job in Luton to manage one of his chemist shops - I was so excited. I was finally coming to this great country that I had heard so much about.

Britain, the country where there was always a right and proper way of doing things, a democratic country that allowed for freedom of speech and expression but was still relatively grounded in its beliefs. A Christian country that allowed for the practice of other faiths. One in which where there were opportunities for all who sought it and were prepared to work for it, almost regardless of race and colour.

I went to a local state school, where we had assembly and sang hymns and the headmistress gave a closing prayer. Hymns and closing prayer?? That’s almost unheard of in many state schools now - and why? Multiculturalism and the completely misguided belief that it would cause offence to non-Christians.

I completely agree with you that the goverment, the establishment, even the Royal Family (Prince Charles, defender of all faiths) have been completely sucked into a situation where in the country trying to be all things to all men has given up it beliefs, its fabric, its everything and is bereft of anything. My children are certainly not being taught what it means to be British – gosh, it’s almost embarrassing to say 'I am British'. Teaching all children from an early age to be able to sing the national anthe, would probably provoke a national debate about why we should have an anthem that mentions 'O Lord our God', as it might offend our non-Christian bothers and sisters. The true goal would be completely pushed aside.

I am worried that my children are growing up in a society where there is no national identity and celebration of the British culture. I can definitely attest to the fact that this lack of identity is causing children of second, third etc generation of immigrants to be brought up with the beliefs and national identity of the country their parents or grandparents have come from. They view and will view themselves to be British only as far as their passport is concerned, but a Nigerian, a Ghanaian, a Pakistani or an Indian first and foremost. I am not saying that it is this lack of identity that is solely responsible for young British Muslims wanting to blow themselves and others up, but it certainly plays a large part. They see themselves as Muslim and Pakistani / Bangladeshi / Jamaican first. For some, ‘British’ does not even feature in their identity — hence why they are so able to do what they do and believe what they believe.

Look at America, a country many times larger than ours with people from every corner of the earth, yet they still manage to retain a sense of what it means to be an American, because they make no apology for trying to instil this identity from when one has to pass the citizenship test, to the ceremony and pledge of allegiance.

It amazed me greatly after the July bombing that the majority of the media and British, white public were so shocked that 'our' own people could do this. I certainly was not shocked. What this part of the country needs to realise is because of the promotion of multiculturalism, THERE IS NO LONGER AN 'US'. There now exist separate identities living under the umbrella of Britain/United Kingdom, but who certainly do not view themselves as British.

After the recent raid in East London and the growing likelihood that the police might not find anything, I felt a sense of dread that the 'undercover' extremist groups and Muslim groups who in public like to pretend that there isn't an issue to be worried about (of which there are many) would now be able to use this as a weapon to be fashioned against the police and government, in order to ensure that their activities continue to go undetected and to protect 'their own'. These groups and their leaders who appear in the media, are aware that there is a problem within their communities but as a result of lack of identity or togetherness to the country they live in, they believe that their loyalty belongs first and foremost to their own, rather than to this country.

They might not necessarily agree with those who commit these atrocities, but are more likely to pretend to the outside world that all is well within and try and resolve the issues themselves that report a brother or sister who they know is planning to commit a terrorist crime, because their loyalty belongs to them first and not to the Crown.

There are many second generation immigrants, who although born and bred in this country are feeling a sense of alienation from the country they chose to come and live in and were prepared to imbibe its culture as well as keeping the culture of their parents, because the country, in trying to be all things to all men, has lost its identity and all are left with a lack of belonging.

My parents and I and many black and ethnic groups have always voted for Labour out of a sense of history, but I can certainly tell you that this group are more and more feeling disenchanted with the government as it is they who have slowly helped to ensure the erosion of a national identity out of a sense of political correctness, which they looked to and wanted their children to imbibe.

The Conservatives are certainly missing a trick here - the country wants direction and a national identity to be proud of and not ashamed of; someone who won’t apologise for insisting that those wanting to become citizens must learn to speak English and to pledge allegiance to the Crown, must learn the history of the country and must be able to sing the national anthem. That Christianity is the national faith, for which we make no apology for, that children must and should sing hymns in schools and have prayers.

We should stop being scared and embarrassed for wanting to be proud to be British. If the white, indigenous people are embarrassed about their identity, what hope is there for the rest of us.

You speak for a larger group of people than you probably know.

Skybird · 06-16-06, 06:01 AM

A good reading. Thanks. Reminds me of what an old Armenian school friend of mine is saying, too - different words, same content.

I noted that you are very quick to show up with a huge number of links when the articles do fit in. Do you scan the web for that stuff as kind of your hobby, or is it part of your job? I myself may stumble over something and make a note for later use - and have forgotten it again the next day.

The Avon Lady · 06-16-06, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

A good reading. Thanks. Reminds me of what an old Armenian school friend of mine is saying, too - different words, same content.

I noted that you are very quick to show up with a huge number of links when the articles do fit in. Do you scan the web for that stuff as kind of your hobby, or is it part of your job? I myself may stumble over something and make a note for later use - and have forgotten it again the next day.

I do a lot of searching for some of my work. I pop in to JW a few times a day to see what's new.

gabeeg · 06-16-06, 01:15 PM

It's funny I would probably have been one of those multi-culti people carrying the flag of cultural/religious relativism a few years ago. I have become more and more frustrated by the Muslim peoples I had tried to defend. I had argued that it is not "Islam" that was the problem but Individuals or groups that were the problem. I had argued the reasons for decades of modern problems were combinations of culture, socio-economic disparity, western ignorance and arrogance, etc. I still believe these things to a large extent and I believe that they are indeed at the root of our current problems. Where I have changed is in my willingness to give a free pass to these "Islamic Cultures" (Arab, Turkic, etc.). Where are the Muslim voices for reason? Where are the calls from the leaders in these "cultures" for more tolerance and understanding? Where are Clerics that while believing they are oppressed or wronged, try to create dialog....or admit that they are any small part of any problem? Granted there are those that attempt these things but their voices are weak and lack conviction in most instances. Time and time again they say the right things for western consumption and something else for their own domestic audience. Where are the leaders and clerics that are taking risks for the cause of reason? Where are the leaders and clerics that are willing to give what what they demand from us? Is it Indeed the teachings of Islam that make these things so seemingly impossible?

I often hear of the wrongs of Judeo-Christian cultures, such as the Crusades and the Isreali oppression of Palestinians. That these histories are daily reality to Islamic nations and cultures and are a part of their cultural consiousness. What about Islam? For centuries they had ruled over large areas of once Christian nations. Still to this day there are large judeo-christian communities in Islamic lands. Have they always been treated with tolerance? Even today, what Islamic state can say that their Judeo-Christian populations are equal....none. From the worst where they are unwelcome, persecuted, murdered to the best where they are a sub-class not nearly equal in the eyes of the government or the courts, though they maybe tolerated and live thier lives generally unmolested. Where are the calls for this to be changed? I have heard nothing but apologists even from the most reform and liberally minded in the Islamic leadership. Is it political immaturity or something else, more deeply seated?

I have read recently a bit on Gandhi, where is the Islamic Gandhi? A person who agressively pursues to correct the wrongs done to his people but is just as unyielding in standing up to intolerance in his own peoples/nation? I do not want to believe that to be a true Muslim and a true voice tolerance and understanding are incompatible. I have read the greater part of the Koran (I have three separate translations) and for the most part do not see this imcompatibility. I have read troubling passages...(but I have read troubling passages in the bible) and also passage of tolerance especially for "Peoples of the Book". What I am coming to think is that maybe these areas I find so troubling are core beliefs that are unable to be taken in context to times or events in the past.

I don't know....I really don't but I am greatly frustrated and disapointed. I find it harder and harder to defend a people and religion that though greatly wronged and misunderstood...does little or nothing to justify this defence.

As an Armenian (American) myself I have always appreciated the stories of those Muslims that helped the Armenian people (Turk, Kurd or Arab) during the Genocide and used these great and good deads to argue that Islam was not the problem but the Turkish Government and its followers (sadly a large percentage of the population). I was proud when the U.S. and allies defended the Muslims of Kosovo and largely for the right reasons (Humanitarian). I am proud as an Armenian that one of Armenias few friends in this world is Muslim Iran. How do I reconcile these feeling?

scandium · 06-16-06, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabeeg

It's funny I would probably have been one of those multi-culti people carrying the flag of cultural/religious relativism a few years ago. I have become more and more frustrated by the Muslim peoples I had tried to defend. I had argued that it is not "Islam" that was the problem but Individuals or groups that were the problem. I had argued the reasons for decades of modern problems were combinations of culture, socio-economic disparity, western ignorance and arrogance, etc. I still believe these things to a large extent and I believe that they are indeed at the root of our current problems. Where I have changed is in my willingness to give a free pass to these "Islamic Cultures" (Arab, Turkic, etc.). Where are the Muslim voices for reason? Where are the calls from the leaders in these "cultures" for more tolerance and understanding? Where are Clerics that while believing they are oppressed or wronged, try to create dialog....or admit that they are any small part of any problem? Granted there are those that attempt these things but their voices are weak and lack conviction in most instances. Time and time again they say the right things for western consumption and something else for their own domestic audience. Where are the leaders and clerics that are taking risks for the cause of reason? Where are the leaders and clerics that are willing to give what what they demand from us? Is it Indeed the teachings of Islam that make these things so seemingly impossible?

They are drowned out by the acts of the few extremists because preaching moderation doesn't get headlines and it doesn't sell newspapers. Here in Canada we've had tens of thousands of Muslims living with us peacefully for decades but its the recent plot of 17 of them that puts the entire Muslim community in the spotlight. And it strikes me as an absurd thing that a few people here happily tar these tens of thousands with the terrorist brush, tens of thousands who are not terrorirst and are not extremists, but there it is.

And if I listened to the hysterical ravings of the few Islamophobes here then I would be building myself a mideival style castle and arming myself for Armagedon. Meanwhile in reality (the place that some seem to have departed already) I am more likely to get struck by lightning than I am to be a victim of terrorism. For that matter, if I'm ever a victim of violence (including road rage, random shootings, muggings, the entire spectrum of violent crime) I am much more likely to be victimized by someone of my own Christian faith simply because that is how it is statistically (here in this place called reality). I suspect its the same in Fresno, California.

In any case, I prefer to enjoy my life and be tolerant of people of all faiths and ethnicities to allowing myself to fall prey to this culture of fear that is being preached by the likes of Jerry Falwell and those on this board who sound just like him, who would have me live in fear of the big bad Islamic boogeyman and move to a mountain awaiting Armegedon.

Skybird · 06-16-06, 02:35 PM

While the tide is growing, the small island of the happy will become increasingly crowded. A friendly Muslim neighbor in the neighbouring appartment will not change that.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, send a boy to college, but you can't make him think." (Sherrie Austin)

TteFAboB · 06-16-06, 09:49 PM

caspofungin,

Israelis chose to bring down their "Nazi Jews" as Ben-Gurion named them.

Open your history book about the Altalena again. Do you remember who Olmert is? He was from the Irgun, remember?

This is something that NEVER happened in Palestine, with Palestinians, by Yasser Arafat or Abbas or by the Hamas. Where is the Stern Gang today?! Are they blowing Palestinian restaurants to bits every week, or attempting to do so?

The pressure to drop terrorism in Israel came from inside, Palestinians however still didn't had their Altalena moment.

Did Arafat ever opposed the Al-Aqsa brigades? What will happen to the Izz Al-Sin Al-Qassam? Will they be brought down?

Israel is now swimming in a democratic centralism (ie. no more ideological utopy) with plans on the table (define fixed borders by 2010, get rid of some settlements, etc.), what's the plan of the Hamas? If Khaled Mashaal is right, then it is "not to transform Gaza in Hong Kong [in other words, they don't have a problem with poverty, they want poverty because then they can blame Israel for it and recruit new martyrs], but we promise a digne, proud life and resistance to the occupiers of our land".

Alot was done wrong in the Israeli occupation, but how will the Hamas exercise this resistance? Diplomatically?

Say what you want about Israel, what we see once again is the Arab and/or Muslim world lagging behind. Will they take the next step toward moderation and purge, marginalize and defeat their extremists like the Israelis did?

Kissinger believes it might happen, either that or the Hamas will accept a non-declared peace deal (you go your way, I go mine, we don't blow each other), I don't like Kissinger at a personal level, but this time, I hope he's right.

The only choice are the institutions, thus the terror boat must be sunk.

Only a terrorist would disagree (Kissinger trade-mark).

caspofungin · 06-16-06, 11:00 PM

Quote:

The pressure to drop terrorism in Israel came from inside, Palestinians however still didn't had their Altalena moment

correct me if i'm wrong, but the altalena incident was about a government attempt to enforce its will on more violent/confrontational elements. isn't that what's been happening in palestine? abbas and the pa trying to enforce their authority on militant groups which are more confrontational? abbas' failure to assert his authority led, in part, to the victory of hamas. there are those who say abbas' efforts were hamstrung from the get-go.

Quote:

Say what you want about Israel, what we see once again is the Arab and/or Muslim world lagging behind. Will they take the next step toward moderation and purge, marginalize and defeat their extremists like the Israelis did?

Kissinger believes it might happen, either that or the Hamas will accept a non-declared peace deal (you go your way, I go mine, we don't blow each other), I don't like Kissinger at a personal level, but this time, I hope he's right.

i'm with you totally.

06-16-06, 06:01 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,668 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	A good reading. Thanks. Reminds me of what an old Armenian school friend of mine is saying, too - different words, same content. I noted that you are very quick to show up with a huge number of links when the articles do fit in. Do you scan the web for that stuff as kind of your hobby, or is it part of your job? I myself may stumble over something and make a note for later use - and have forgotten it again the next day. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-16-06, 01:15 PM	#5
gabeeg Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Fresno, CA USA Posts: 101 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	It's funny I would probably have been one of those multi-culti people carrying the flag of cultural/religious relativism a few years ago. I have become more and more frustrated by the Muslim peoples I had tried to defend. I had argued that it is not "Islam" that was the problem but Individuals or groups that were the problem. I had argued the reasons for decades of modern problems were combinations of culture, socio-economic disparity, western ignorance and arrogance, etc. I still believe these things to a large extent and I believe that they are indeed at the root of our current problems. Where I have changed is in my willingness to give a free pass to these "Islamic Cultures" (Arab, Turkic, etc.). Where are the Muslim voices for reason? Where are the calls from the leaders in these "cultures" for more tolerance and understanding? Where are Clerics that while believing they are oppressed or wronged, try to create dialog....or admit that they are any small part of any problem? Granted there are those that attempt these things but their voices are weak and lack conviction in most instances. Time and time again they say the right things for western consumption and something else for their own domestic audience. Where are the leaders and clerics that are taking risks for the cause of reason? Where are the leaders and clerics that are willing to give what what they demand from us? Is it Indeed the teachings of Islam that make these things so seemingly impossible? I often hear of the wrongs of Judeo-Christian cultures, such as the Crusades and the Isreali oppression of Palestinians. That these histories are daily reality to Islamic nations and cultures and are a part of their cultural consiousness. What about Islam? For centuries they had ruled over large areas of once Christian nations. Still to this day there are large judeo-christian communities in Islamic lands. Have they always been treated with tolerance? Even today, what Islamic state can say that their Judeo-Christian populations are equal....none. From the worst where they are unwelcome, persecuted, murdered to the best where they are a sub-class not nearly equal in the eyes of the government or the courts, though they maybe tolerated and live thier lives generally unmolested. Where are the calls for this to be changed? I have heard nothing but apologists even from the most reform and liberally minded in the Islamic leadership. Is it political immaturity or something else, more deeply seated? I have read recently a bit on Gandhi, where is the Islamic Gandhi? A person who agressively pursues to correct the wrongs done to his people but is just as unyielding in standing up to intolerance in his own peoples/nation? I do not want to believe that to be a true Muslim and a true voice tolerance and understanding are incompatible. I have read the greater part of the Koran (I have three separate translations) and for the most part do not see this imcompatibility. I have read troubling passages...(but I have read troubling passages in the bible) and also passage of tolerance especially for "Peoples of the Book". What I am coming to think is that maybe these areas I find so troubling are core beliefs that are unable to be taken in context to times or events in the past. I don't know....I really don't but I am greatly frustrated and disapointed. I find it harder and harder to defend a people and religion that though greatly wronged and misunderstood...does little or nothing to justify this defence. As an Armenian (American) myself I have always appreciated the stories of those Muslims that helped the Armenian people (Turk, Kurd or Arab) during the Genocide and used these great and good deads to argue that Islam was not the problem but the Turkish Government and its followers (sadly a large percentage of the population). I was proud when the U.S. and allies defended the Muslims of Kosovo and largely for the right reasons (Humanitarian). I am proud as an Armenian that one of Armenias few friends in this world is Muslim Iran. How do I reconcile these feeling? __________________ Kind Regards, Harry J. Miktarian

06-16-06, 02:35 PM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,668 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	While the tide is growing, the small island of the happy will become increasingly crowded. A friendly Muslim neighbor in the neighbouring appartment will not change that. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, send a boy to college, but you can't make him think." (Sherrie Austin) __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-16-06, 09:49 PM	#8
TteFAboB Admiral Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,247 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	caspofungin, Israelis chose to bring down their "Nazi Jews" as Ben-Gurion named them. Open your history book about the Altalena again. Do you remember who Olmert is? He was from the Irgun, remember? This is something that NEVER happened in Palestine, with Palestinians, by Yasser Arafat or Abbas or by the Hamas. Where is the Stern Gang today?! Are they blowing Palestinian restaurants to bits every week, or attempting to do so? The pressure to drop terrorism in Israel came from inside, Palestinians however still didn't had their Altalena moment. Did Arafat ever opposed the Al-Aqsa brigades? What will happen to the Izz Al-Sin Al-Qassam? Will they be brought down? Israel is now swimming in a democratic centralism (ie. no more ideological utopy) with plans on the table (define fixed borders by 2010, get rid of some settlements, etc.), what's the plan of the Hamas? If Khaled Mashaal is right, then it is "not to transform Gaza in Hong Kong [in other words, they don't have a problem with poverty, they want poverty because then they can blame Israel for it and recruit new martyrs], but we promise a digne, proud life and resistance to the occupiers of our land". Alot was done wrong in the Israeli occupation, but how will the Hamas exercise this resistance? Diplomatically? Say what you want about Israel, what we see once again is the Arab and/or Muslim world lagging behind. Will they take the next step toward moderation and purge, marginalize and defeat their extremists like the Israelis did? Kissinger believes it might happen, either that or the Hamas will accept a non-declared peace deal (you go your way, I go mine, we don't blow each other), I don't like Kissinger at a personal level, but this time, I hope he's right. The only choice are the institutions, thus the terror boat must be sunk. Only a terrorist would disagree (Kissinger trade-mark). __________________ "Tout ce qui est exagéré est insignifiant." ("All that is exaggerated is insignificant.") - Talleyrand