There goes Hong Kong

Rockstar · 05-22-20, 01:22 PM

The Thucydides Trap: Are the U.S. and China Headed for War?

In 12 of 16 past cases in which a rising power has confronted a ruling power, the result has been bloodshed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...s-trap/406756/

Jimbuna · 05-22-20, 01:41 PM

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has condemned China's plan to impose a new security law in Hong Kong, calling it a "death knell" for the city's freedoms.

China is seeking to pass a law that would ban "treason, secession, sedition and subversion" in Hong Kong.

Critics say the law would strip Hong Kong of the rights it currently enjoys, that are not seen in mainland China.

Mr Pompeo said the decision to bypass Hong Kong's lawmakers ignores "the will of the people".

"The United States strongly urges Beijing to reconsider its disastrous proposal, abide by its international obligations, and respect Hong Kong's high degree of autonomy, democratic institutions, and civil liberties," Mr Pompeo said in a statement on Friday.

Mr Pompeo's intervention is likely to infuriate the Chinese government, whose relations with the US have been strained recently by disputes over trade and the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-52771718

Skybird · 05-22-20, 05:17 PM

Anyone here who seriously believed (when the Brits gave JHongkong back to China) that the Chinese would forever stick to their candy-sweet promises?

Honestly said I am surprised that they held themselves back this long.

Its not fair, but Hongkong is doomed. It always was.

Taiwan probably is next. It wants to press for WHO membership "after" the Corona crisis, but the WHO is its archenemy's playground. The Europeans play a very shameful role in it, but the US does not play much better. It only hides its indifference better.

And then there is the SouthChinese Sea.

These crisis have the potential to shake the world. But there are more, but issues like Tibet, beside being genocide, just do not impress the world. Business makes the coins rolling around. Until China starts to dictate terms and conditions.

mapuc · 05-22-20, 05:30 PM

As Jim answered me in our Wuhan-thread.

(from my memory)
And who shall make them pay

Which country or countries would be interest in a confrontation with China ?

Markus

Skybird · 05-22-20, 06:14 PM

Germany stopping to pay them development aid (yes, we still do that, its true...) and the West stopping to invest in China inj general, cancelling trade treaties, would be two things for a start. Massivbely boosting military defences of neighbpourign states like Phillipines, Vietnam, Japan, Australia. Establishing standing military presences in the SouthChinese Sea. Forcing Western companies to abandopne Chinese production sites. Boycotting Chinese trading goods. Putting diplomatic relations on ice infinitely.

For over four dercades we have played the soft balkl. Nursed thenm, help them growing, transferred know-how, made them strong.

Maybe its finally a clever idea to stop all these follies? If not some political idiot would immediately start yelling again that this would be "provoking" to them, and an affront, and a financial loss...?! And starting to build hurldes to the Chinese taking over Africa?

The problems we have with China today, to major shares have been fostered and grown by ourselves. and nthat includes America AND Europe.

I must admit that years ago I woke to the unpleasant reality a bit late, too. But at least finally I did woke up. Most of the West still seems to want sleeping.

Rockstar · 05-22-20, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

As Jim answered me in our Wuhan-thread.

(from my memory)
And who shall make them pay

Which country or countries would be interest in a confrontation with China ?

Markus

I posted an article earlier in another topic. Which said Greece was relieving U.S. missile defense crews in Saudi Arabia. It then alluded to the idea we might be moving our crews/assets to the Pacific.

Skybird · 05-28-20, 07:18 AM

Its through their "parliament". So, autonomous Hong Kong now is history, practically. The top godfather Xing will not stop it.

Interestingly, not a word on it in most of the German press. The Germans. Well.

Since there is no serious will displayed by the West to call China out over this, and the West already fell back from their "land taking" in the south chinese sea, and their haughty arrogant threats towards Australia, Vietnam and Japan also have not triggered a clear reaction by the West, I think the signal of Hong Kong now is that it is only a question of time before they turn against Taiwan.

With all violence as needed.

Five years, ten years, I dont know. But it will happen. The Chinese have learned since decades now that nobody will dare to stand up in their way.

Meanwhile the Germans warn against reversing globalisation and that they want to stick to their illusory "strategic partnership" with China. As if China takes Germany serious, or would need to. They are beyond that point where they needed to, since many years.

Europe's China-policy always was a most stupid and clueless one. America's as well. Reminds of the tale of the sorcerer's apprentices.

Onkel Neal · 05-28-20, 07:30 AM

My simplistic (as usual) solution: all we need to do is stop trade with China cold. No more Chinese goods coming in to the country, period. Start off with federal guarantees that new companies investing in American/Canadian factories will have market subsidies and be shielded from foreign competition for 4 years. If we switch our economy over to producing the goods needed for public consumption, China will be back to a third world country.

05-22-20, 01:22 PM	#1
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The Thucydides Trap: Are the U.S. and China Headed for War? In 12 of 16 past cases in which a rising power has confronted a ruling power, the result has been bloodshed. https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...s-trap/406756/ Last edited by Rockstar; 05-22-20 at 07:13 PM.

05-22-20, 01:41 PM	#2
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,539 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has condemned China's plan to impose a new security law in Hong Kong, calling it a "death knell" for the city's freedoms. China is seeking to pass a law that would ban "treason, secession, sedition and subversion" in Hong Kong. Critics say the law would strip Hong Kong of the rights it currently enjoys, that are not seen in mainland China. Mr Pompeo said the decision to bypass Hong Kong's lawmakers ignores "the will of the people". "The United States strongly urges Beijing to reconsider its disastrous proposal, abide by its international obligations, and respect Hong Kong's high degree of autonomy, democratic institutions, and civil liberties," Mr Pompeo said in a statement on Friday. Mr Pompeo's intervention is likely to infuriate the Chinese government, whose relations with the US have been strained recently by disputes over trade and the coronavirus pandemic. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-52771718 __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

05-22-20, 05:17 PM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,630 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Anyone here who seriously believed (when the Brits gave JHongkong back to China) that the Chinese would forever stick to their candy-sweet promises? Honestly said I am surprised that they held themselves back this long. Its not fair, but Hongkong is doomed. It always was. Taiwan probably is next. It wants to press for WHO membership "after" the Corona crisis, but the WHO is its archenemy's playground. The Europeans play a very shameful role in it, but the US does not play much better. It only hides its indifference better. And then there is the SouthChinese Sea. These crisis have the potential to shake the world. But there are more, but issues like Tibet, beside being genocide, just do not impress the world. Business makes the coins rolling around. Until China starts to dictate terms and conditions. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-22-20, 06:14 PM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,630 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Germany stopping to pay them development aid (yes, we still do that, its true...) and the West stopping to invest in China inj general, cancelling trade treaties, would be two things for a start. Massivbely boosting military defences of neighbpourign states like Phillipines, Vietnam, Japan, Australia. Establishing standing military presences in the SouthChinese Sea. Forcing Western companies to abandopne Chinese production sites. Boycotting Chinese trading goods. Putting diplomatic relations on ice infinitely. For over four dercades we have played the soft balkl. Nursed thenm, help them growing, transferred know-how, made them strong. Maybe its finally a clever idea to stop all these follies? If not some political idiot would immediately start yelling again that this would be "provoking" to them, and an affront, and a financial loss...?! And starting to build hurldes to the Chinese taking over Africa? The problems we have with China today, to major shares have been fostered and grown by ourselves. and nthat includes America AND Europe. I must admit that years ago I woke to the unpleasant reality a bit late, too. But at least finally I did woke up. Most of the West still seems to want sleeping. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-28-20, 07:18 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,630 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Its through their "parliament". So, autonomous Hong Kong now is history, practically. The top godfather Xing will not stop it. Interestingly, not a word on it in most of the German press. The Germans. Well. Since there is no serious will displayed by the West to call China out over this, and the West already fell back from their "land taking" in the south chinese sea, and their haughty arrogant threats towards Australia, Vietnam and Japan also have not triggered a clear reaction by the West, I think the signal of Hong Kong now is that it is only a question of time before they turn against Taiwan. With all violence as needed. Five years, ten years, I dont know. But it will happen. The Chinese have learned since decades now that nobody will dare to stand up in their way. Meanwhile the Germans warn against reversing globalisation and that they want to stick to their illusory "strategic partnership" with China. As if China takes Germany serious, or would need to. They are beyond that point where they needed to, since many years. Europe's China-policy always was a most stupid and clueless one. America's as well. Reminds of the tale of the sorcerer's apprentices. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-22-20, 05:30 PM	#4
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,537 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	As Jim answered me in our Wuhan-thread. (from my memory) And who shall make them pay Which country or countries would be interest in a confrontation with China ? Markus

05-28-20, 07:30 AM	#8
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	My simplistic (as usual) solution: all we need to do is stop trade with China cold. No more Chinese goods coming in to the country, period. Start off with federal guarantees that new companies investing in American/Canadian factories will have market subsidies and be shielded from foreign competition for 4 years. If we switch our economy over to producing the goods needed for public consumption, China will be back to a third world country.