The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged)

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I wonder what the Old Testament should have to do with all this. Christian acting refers to the Christ - who by his own life alone became the founding figure of "Christianity", before him their was no idea of a christian religion at all, there only was Judaism. A christianity referring to the OT is not Christian at all, in the meaning of the word. I tend to understand these constant references to the OT as attempts to put things into politically correct relations and make it seem that Islam compares to Jesus' teachings (these are the only true Christian message there is, necessarily and as expressed in the word "Christian", anything else is church and politics only), and that Islam is as harmless. It does not compare, in any way. If you want to do a structural comparion of scriptures in Islam and christianity, than only the message of Jesus is truly representative for Islam, and the Koran as it should have been dicated by Muhammad is representative for Islam. I do not see what Islamic scripture could compare to the role that the Old Testament plays.

Skybird, Christianity is based on both the Old and New Testament. The New Testament may be what makes it distinct from Judaism, but all mainstream Christian faiths base their teaching on both books.

The current "Intelligent Design" debate in the US, for instance, is based on Genesis which is from the Old Testament. The Ten Commandments that prescribe how a faithful Christian should conduct their lives are also from the Old Testament.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by scandium

Skybird, Christianity is based on both the Old and New Testament. The New Testament may be what makes it distinct from Judaism, but all mainstream Christian faiths base their teaching on both books.

The current "Intelligent Design" debate in the US, for instance, is based on Genesis which is from the Old Testament. The Ten Commandments that prescribe how a faithful Christian should conduct their lives are also from the Old Testament.

I stick to it: Christian is who follows the Christ. Before Christ, there was no Christian religion. the Christian church is an ursupator only, it is not what Jesus was about, he did not found it, he did not authorize it. The only christian "club" that I could imagine to be in the following of Jesus, are the Christian mystics, not the church and not today'S fundamentalists, both all too often in clear violation of Jesus teachings. Without these teachings, christianity is nothing, meaningless. Institutionalization and politics started not before people like Paul took over. You have not understood that most essential difference between church and Jesus in a debate some days ago, and I think you will also try hard not to realize it today.

Where a Christian acts with terror and violance, he is violating his own religion named christianity, deriving from the Christ, Jesus. He can be a church member nevertheless. The church is not Jesus, and never was.

In contrast to that, the institutional structures of Islam had been rasied and, in a way, authorized by Muhammad. Where Jesus did not found a church, Muhammad did.

Where A Muslim acts with terror and violance, he is not violating but followung the explicit rules and demands as set up by Islam's founder, Muhammad, in word, practice and teaching.

Muhammad murderd men already when he was leading caravans of his uncle thorugh the desert. He ordered 70-80 wars and pradotry raids. He ordered mass murder and genocide. He orderd murder and torture. He orderd slavery and supression.

Now show me where in the teachings of Jesus, Christians are ordered to do all that. Jesus, like buddha, tought exactly the opposite.

This difference is what it all comes down to. And btw, even the ursupatory christian chruches has seen a develoepment that made it less tyrannic and murderous than it was during the inquisition. Whereas the history of Islam is that of constant aggression, landtaking, war, violant subjugation (have you red the news on Somalia today?), and cultural cleansing up to the very present.

Read the article I linked to one post above.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Whereas the history of Islam is that of constant aggression, landtaking, war, violant subjugation (have you red the news on Somalia today?), and cultural cleansing up to the very present.

And the history of Christianity isn't? As one who lives in a place where the indigenous peoples were regarded as "uncivilized heathen" who were then treated accordingly, I see things differently. But that could be because my civilized and enlightened Christian ancestors had proceeded to treat these indigenous peoples with genocide, committing a 100% extermination of them.

That is about as complete a "constant aggression landtaking, war" as you can get, since it didn't end until there was nobody left to kill off.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by scandium

And the history of Christianity isn't? As one who lives in a place where the indigenous peoples were regarded as "uncivilized heathen" who were then treated accordingly, I see things differently. But that could be because my civilized and enlightened Christian ancestors had proceeded to treat these indigenous peoples with genocide, committing a 100% extermination of them.

That is about as complete a "constant aggression landtaking, war" as you can get, since it didn't end until there was nobody left to kill off.

And again you illustrate that church and Jesus is one and the same for you. I have explained that five or six times now to you. Won't do it again. Get it or leave it.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And again you illustrate that church and Jesus is one and the same for you. I have explained that five or six times now to you. Won't do it again. Get it or leave it.

It doesn't matter how often you explain how you interpret it, since it is one and the same for me, the same as it is for millions of others who were raised as Catholic and where the Pope is regarded as infallible and Papal Decree as the word of God. You make the mistake instead of interpreting your own (Protestant?) views on chruch and Jesus as being universal when they are not universal.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by scandium

It doesn't matter how often you explain how you interpret it, since it is one and the same for me, the same as it is for millions of others who were raised as Catholic and where the Pope is regarded as infallible and Papal Decree as the word of God. You make the mistake instead of interpreting your own (Protestant?) views on chruch and Jesus as being universal when they are not universal.

You talk about politics then. I talk about religion. Christianity and "Churchism" are not the same. Some of the most original and creative minds that ever appeared during the last two thousand years of "church history" saw it the same, btw. And often came into conflict with the papal system, for that reason, or the followers got wiped out.

The pope: God's representative on earth - what a blasphemy. and you give him as an example of christian teachings deriving from Jesus?

And I am still waiting for your answer to this: you also did not show me where Jesus explicitly commanded and ordered that kind of violance and subjugation that Muhammad explicitly has demanded, and practiced himself. I would also like to know where you see violant Islam in conflict with the example the founder of this religion, Muhammad, has set

[Skybird]

BTW, I am not protestant, nor is my view representative for protestantism. When I attack the church, I mean all churches there are.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The pope: God's representative on earth - what a blasphemy. and you give him as an example of christian teachings deriving from Jesus?

Not to the millions of Christians who call themselves Catholics, and that is part of my point. Were there no Islam to rally against we would go back to killing each other, as we did in northern Ireland and as we did during the great schisms. Your point seems to be that Christians don't kill anyone over there faith because of Jesus. My point is that Christians have always killed people because of their faith, in spite of Jesus. And on this, regardless of how you think Christians should behave, history is on my side.

And I am still waiting for your answer to this: you also did not show me where Jesus explicitly commanded and ordered that kind of violance and subjugation that Muhammad explicitly has demanded, and practiced himself. I would also like to know where you see violant Islam in conflict with the example the founder of this religion, Muhammad, has set

This isn't relevant to me. Historically, again to go by history and not theology (since only one of these two things is concrete), it hasn't mattered what Jesus or Muhammad preached as any religion can be used to justify (as it always has been) just about anything.