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Old 11-22-2019, 05:08 AM   #16
ikalugin
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Is Perseus dead by the way?
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:52 AM   #17
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Perseus was just a theoretical research aimed to define the needs for the UK/French FC/ASW missile joint program.
UK want a stealth missile and French a fast one (between Mach 5 to Mach +7).

The FC/ASW final specs should be defined Q2/2020.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:42 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus Shinra View Post
I'm not sure it swallows that much of the SSN budget, if only because the development and procurement cycles for submarines are longer in France than in UK or US, so the SSN gets the experience from the SSK. When you consider both the size and the hybrid propulsion system of the Suffren, for example, it's quite clear it benefitted a lot from the Scorpene know-how, and vice-versa for the Barracuda Shortfin.

Unlike most if not all other countries, our SSK and SSN are roughly the same size (hell, Rubis had a smaller displacement than Surcouf...), which makes a lot of the work for one usable in the other. Which, of course, also means that our SSN are less effective oceanic fleet units compared to dedicated ones (I was astonished at the small size of the SSBN I visited, it 's barely longer than a US SSN).


It might not be the same way exactly here. For example, DCNS built the demonstrator for the Gowind stealth corvette on its own money and even allowed the MN to have a go at it even though they weren't interested in buying it, knowing there would be a number of foreign customers for such a class. The MN loved having a lease on an advanced patrol ship for free, DCNS got to say their ship was sailor-tested and approved, and ended up selling almost two dozen to foreign customers.

I don't know how the budget goes for the SSK R&D, but it could be similar.
Our mindset is very, very different from the Anglo one, for sure. The social status and the role of the engineer are pretty different compared to UK or US, and then there's how wit and sarcasm are perceived (it's an art here, open jousts being a wonderful sport the same way as the British art of understatement is deeply appreciated on your side of the pond and how both fly above US' head like a SR-71 or even offend them in our case despite how friendly it is from our POV), or the relation to the law (in the US, the written text is absolute, definitive and the point of all attentions, while in France, it's a lot more fluid, with the intent being above the letter a lot more often, as well as interpersonal relationships going above the text itself, all the way to Constitutional debates - the way we consider our Constitution would give aneurysm to most law scholars in the US).
Heh, not that sure about the validity of very long range subsonic AShM. It requires uninterrupted communications for one hour or so, which is asking a lot from the opponent.

Some interesting points raised, when it comes to France R&D my knowledge is limited i specialize in logistics and supply.

I can see the SSK and SSN were built in parallel a lot of the stuff that goes into all the European projects gets moved around by people like me, its a massive cycle and its the same for UK projects, for example the steel that went into the QE mainly came from Germany, it was formed in the UK hence the capability to claim UK steel.

If the SSN and SSK are run parallel then yes i can see that being a merit to the budget, if it is as simple as switching a reactor for diesel engines then yeah i see that.

I have done a part of FOST on the Rubis class they do have a lot of short comings they failed my section of FOST but we did kind of expect that because we were trailing something new and it didn't work (not the crew or boats fault)

The only french SSBN ive been on is in Cherbourg the Le Redoubtable i have not been on the current ones.

The lease thing with the Gowind that is something similar to what BAe did with some OPVs its a good way to do it but it comes with issues.

I have no idea about the French constitution or laws tbh most countries laws are mind ####s including the UK

I have my apprehensions about TASM as well but right now thats about the best option for long range AShM problem being is as you pointed out its subsonic and has a lot of idiosyncrasies it can easily be intercepted by an opponent so is it any good? like harpoon i think their day has long gone.

Think i covered all your points
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan View Post
Some interesting points raised, when it comes to France R&D my knowledge is limited i specialize in logistics and supply.

I can see the SSK and SSN were built in parallel a lot of the stuff that goes into all the European projects gets moved around by people like me, its a massive cycle and its the same for UK projects, for example the steel that went into the QE mainly came from Germany, it was formed in the UK hence the capability to claim UK steel.

If the SSN and SSK are run parallel then yes i can see that being a merit to the budget, if it is as simple as switching a reactor for diesel engines then yeah i see that.
It's not exactly a switch, except maybe for the Barracuda Shortfin sold to Australia, which is extremely close to the Suffren, but from what I understand from the Suffren's propulsion system, SSK tech is quite influential in it.

Quote:
The only french SSBN ive been on is in Cherbourg the Le Redoubtable i have not been on the current ones.
Téméraire was surprisingly confortable in the accomodations I saw, and I appreciated visiting it after seeing Wolf's Call, looking at what was correct and what wasn't. Let's just say that Wolf's Call was as incorrect on the SSBN's CIC as it was correct on the SSN's CIC. I mean, the production crew got to board a Rubis, take pictures inside the CIC and after security filtered which ones they could keep, they litterally rebuilt a 1:1 mock-up of the Rubis' CIC for shooting the scenes, but then, you probably guessed it, having been onboard a Rubis. The Triomphant's CIC is quite different from the one shown in the movie, though some other scenes inside it are closer to reality.
Quote:
I have no idea about the French constitution or laws tbh most countries laws are mind ####s including the UK
I started studying our legal system a bit last year, and I found it fascinating to compare how the people relate to law and government in various countries. It tells a lot about the national mindsets.
Quote:
I have my apprehensions about TASM as well but right now thats about the best option for long range AShM problem being is as you pointed out its subsonic and has a lot of idiosyncrasies it can easily be intercepted by an opponent so is it any good? like harpoon i think their day has long gone.
Yeah, TASM is cheap and simple, so it does allow a submarine to have a shipkilling capability on cooperative targets at long ranges, which is good, I'll admit. I just wish we went through with the ANF back in the Nineties, a conventional anti-ship variant of the 500 km - Mach 3 ASMP-A. Legend says that the US pressured us a bit to cancel the program, not wanting to see that kind of missile being sold to tinpot dictators of all kind, and offered to sell us the three Hawkeye we have for CdG as a carrot for that.


ASMP-A is pretty damn expensive, but if we could get an AShM variant out of it, perhaps with reduced performance compared to its nuclear brother, it might make for a superb shipkiller. But then, we get in the "what if" field. *goes back to his voxel SSBN in From The Depths to get his dose of "what if"*

Quote:
Think i covered all your points
Yep! Thanks!
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Old 12-18-2019, 11:32 AM   #20
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Spoilers will be hidden for this review.

Watched this last night. I was handicapped by a subtitles track that showed a line of dialogue 7 seconds before it was uttered on the screen, which was a little confusing at times. Some day I need to learn how to synch an srt file with the video, but oh well.

So, the French do have a few nuclear submarines, both fast attack and boomers, which makes them capable partners for NATO and the US. The movie mixes a little Dr. Strangelove with Hunt for Red October into a big budget film ($23 million), for France, and it looks really good. The plot is over the top and the main character finds a way to stay at the the center of the action in several scenes that stretch plausibility. And one other narrative device that anyone who knows anything about modern submarine warfare will find hard to swallow--everything is sped up 8x. Torpedoes really fly, subs can get from one area to another in a few hours when it would take much longer.

The main character ("Socks") is a young Acoustic Warfare Analyst who has a mythical ability to hear and classify anything on sonar, a little like Jonesy on HFRO. His sub the Titan is retrieving a SpecOps team off the coast of Syria and they run into a super quiet entity that he cannot classify, a mystery sub.
 
His uncertainty nearly causes disaster and sets the stage for similar drama at the end of the film. Their sub is detected by an Iranian frigate which promptly dispatches a helo to attack them. One thing leads to another and the sub's only option is to emergency surface and the captain pops out the sail hatch with an RPG. And then! The RPG trigger is locked . What? That's taking child safety too far. Ok, so he has to yell at another sailor with an automatic rifle to shoot the lock off the RPG. While holding it in from of him. This really announced to me this film was not going to be very realistic and really set the tone.




The Titan returns to base, from Syria to France. News prominently announces the Russians are invading Finland, without going into detail as for why. France is threatening Russia, the US is uninterested in getting involved (really? Come on ) and war looks likely. Socks is demoted and chewed out for not getting it right. He meets a chick and they fall in love, in 10 minutes. Which with war looming, makes sense to me, I know that's what I'll be doing.
 
Socks breaks into the admiral's office, guesses his password and gets secret intel that reveals the mystery sub is a Russian class that was "cancelled", except it wasn't, so the French never knew it existed and no one has any sound info. Well, now he knows why he couldn't figure it out.


The French admiral dispatches the Titan's captain to sea on the SSBN Formidable to provide a nuclear deterrent to the Russkies and his XO D'orsy takes command of the fast attack Titan to provide cover. Off they go to some undisclosed underwater area to stand by.

The mysterious unclassified sub now seems to be in the Barents Sea, and unless there are two of them, this is a long way from the Mediterranean. It makes its presence known
 
by launching an ICBM which French intelligence detects and tracks transiting across the entire length of Russian, headed to France. I guess this is a plot device that gives the French characters time to react, discuss, and plan to counter. It seems more likely that the Russian would want to strike much nearer to the target, but it becomes clear why this is happening later in the film in a clever twist.


The protocol leads the Admiralty to send a launch code to Formidable, and once sent, there is no recall. The captain of the Formidable will launch and nothing, not even a recall or abort code exists to stop him. It's explained that any attempt to recall the order could be due to spies, hackers, panicky government officials, the enemy, etc. So for the deterrent to be credible and effective, the protocol must be followed.

In a flurry of unlikely activity, Socks sneaks into the underground bunker where the decision makers are.
 
They chew him out for being there then he is allowed to "listen" to the missile's profile. Not sure what the director thinks anyone can do to gauge the weight of a supersonic missile in flight but Socks announces that the missile is 30kg light, and surmises it does not have a payload, no warhead. They figure out the cancelled sub was actually built and sold to an Islamic terrorist group, and the launch is a tactic to start a nuclear war between the West and Russian. Good grief! And the Formidable is about to launch a counterstrike, which will start WWIII!


They fly Socks and the Admiral out to sea, board the the fast attack to stop the Formidable from launching. So much happens in the final 20 minutes, most of it totally impossible, but it is a fitting climax for The Wolf's Call.
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Last edited by Onkel Neal; 12-18-2019 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:22 AM   #21
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