Russia Is About To Turn Off The Internet

ikalugin · 10-31-19, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Well we saw that having the servers in the US are no protection against election manipulation if you do it cleverly

Most will even now say that it did not happen because "what should not happen cannot happen (and "has not happened" lol).

As I have said - the editorialisation is a much more potent influence tool than any third party (ie Cambridge Analytica) can build.
Look up algorithmic fairness that Google is working on.

Quote:

I do not like it either, but if the world/international citizen wants to change this, we'd need an international free independent organisation that provides that kind of independent anonymous internet.

Spoken like a true globalist

So what do nation-state citizens do, when actors from another nation-state attempt to influence their political choices via the services they use on the (enforced by parallel actions) monopoly?

For example, imagine if FB and Google were Russian companies, with politically and socially conservative Russian teams running the editorialising policy, how would you respond to this?

Catfish · 10-31-19, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

[…] Spoken like a true globalist

So what do nation-state citizens do, when actors from another nation-state attempt to influence their political choices via the services they use on the (enforced by parallel actions) monopoly?

This is the problem with nations or states. Which is simply a kind of advanced tribalism, if you ask me. I know nobody does ask.
Abandon states and nations, and have a world government?
But what should all those alpha manikins and potentates do then.. maybe the world citizens or a world government should just shoot them?

Quote:

For example, imagine if FB and Google were Russian companies, with politically and socially conservative Russian teams running the editorialising policy, how would you respond to this?

Well i wonder what would be better, having it like it is done by the US now, or by the Russians. I'd say both are not pretty.

I understand it from a national point of view. And i fear that national thinking is coming back strong.

ikalugin · 10-31-19, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

This is the problem with nations or states. Which is simply a kind of advanced tribalism, if you ask me. I know nobody does ask.
Abandon states and nations, and have a world government?
But what should all those alpha manikins and potentates do then.. maybe the world citizens or a world government should just shoot them?

And have no representation in the decisions that said government makes due to it being so far removed and get cold drinks outlawed because Chinese think that they are bad for your health. No ice tea (coffee, cream, whatever) for you!

Quote:

I understand it from a national point of view. And i fear that national thinking is coming back strong.

There was a monopolar moment and now it is passing.

Catfish · 11-01-19, 06:20 PM

This strange China phenomenon is not the way. It will hold out for maybe 30 years more, but not longer. Pandora's box has been opened 50 years ago.

Regarding the "monopolar moment passing" it is possible, i just hope what some of you call "humanity" gets back to science and a united force, otherwise you will stand no chance.

ikalugin · 11-02-19, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

This strange China phenomenon is not the way. It will hold out for maybe 30 years more, but not longer. Pandora's box has been opened 50 years ago.

What Pandora's box?

Quote:

Regarding the "monopolar moment passing" it is possible, i just hope what some of you call "humanity" gets back to science and a united force, otherwise you will stand no chance.

I knew you were a reptiloid

And you should not be projecting your ideological views onto how human society should operate, it would lead to disapointments, much like it does for Skybird.

Catfish · 11-02-19, 05:47 PM

I'm quite realistic, what Russia does is strangling the once free Internet for ist own people. The justification to be "independent if brownouts or whatever" is a farce, and every russian knows it.
I am not wasting time "discussing" with Putin's speaking tube.

Skybird · 11-03-19, 04:26 PM

All top-DNS level functions are de facto under US control, and certain key servers, master servers or as some call it: the mount Olymp of the internet worldwide, are located in the US as well. NSA, DARPA, the govrnrment and its in parts secret legislation regarding the internet, obviously have no interest in handing this control over to others, to "the world". Clinton said he wanted to share control over it by I think 2000 (or he said thjat in 2000, I am not certain), but that did not happen until today.

For Russia, for China, and less obvious: for the EU, also Asia and all the rest of the globe, this total US control is a potential big scale issue. Its as if the world were a dark cave that now is flooded with light so that all can see: and all six existing light switches being in hands of the Americans, and they do not share it and defend contorl over them with all their fangs and claws.

Most cloud servers (most of them running under Linux, btw) also stand in the US, and thus fall under Us legislation. If the Us law authorizes US offices to scan and spy on cloud-stored data, every US company must comply, unconditionally. Other countries' for exampel data protection laws play no role here. Thats why I say its dangeorus to use cloud services for anything that goes beyond electronic holiday postcards and harmless chatter.

I already said that indeed Russia's steps now can be used to switch off the internet's information and data communciaiton, it already seems to have been done during riots in and near Mscow repeatedly. So it is beign done in China. Still, even if both countries would be perfect liberal democracies, the American dominance in contorlling the web is a big problem for everybody except the US. Lats but not least, mind you: the uS can do like Russia and China as well. Just that the US can literally shut down all the global WWW, like it can switch of the GPS system as well regionally or globally. Except were Russian and Chinese navigation systems can jump in - or their natiopnal intranmets, so to speak, can replace global WWW functionality.

So,, although it can be abused and certainly has been and will be abused, China and Russia nevertheless have legitimate interests to cope with the American options which to their own nations simply are a danger, a threat, and make them vulnerable to US blackmailing or cyber attacks. The Europeans should learn this lesson as well. Fast. Little Cesar at the latest marks the end of the old post-WW2 order of the West. The US is a rival now, no longer an ally. The "West" of the past seven decades - no longer exists.

Taking turns in owning the keys to the Olympic servers, also is no solution, because then Olympic control over the WWW would end in the hands of right these regimes, and worse actors in the third world. And then these players would refuse to hand control over again at the end of their term. Lets face it, the Americans would act stupid if they voluntarily hand over this ace card of theirs. What stupoid would do that...?

There is no solution to this mess, it is a natural conflict and a dilemma. The Europeans should adapt to the facts that define the situation: and come to terms with erecting their own internet infrastructure for servers and cloud computing - and keep the Americans locked out (which they would not like and would start to play dirty over, no doubt, its a topic of utmost geostrategic interest and economic core interests: its maximum essential). Still the Europeans should accept this conflict, and go for this. China already does. And now Russia does. Just Europe still sits in the starting block, and talks, and talks, and talks. And already is trailing behind by twenty years or so. Say goodby to international ambitions to be seen as one of the big players, Europe: just endless moral lecturing does not lead you anywhere. Who wants to be seen as a strong player at the table for the grand jeu, needs to be strong all by himself. And cyberspace, cloud computing, and the web, are three of the most important aspects of the grand jeu.

But the Europeans play CO2 Gambit in a bit to checkmate themselves...!

11-01-19, 06:20 PM	#4
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,804 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	This strange China phenomenon is not the way. It will hold out for maybe 30 years more, but not longer. Pandora's box has been opened 50 years ago. Regarding the "monopolar moment passing" it is possible, i just hope what some of you call "humanity" gets back to science and a united force, otherwise you will stand no chance. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

11-02-19, 05:47 PM	#6
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,804 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	I'm quite realistic, what Russia does is strangling the once free Internet for ist own people. The justification to be "independent if brownouts or whatever" is a farce, and every russian knows it. I am not wasting time "discussing" with Putin's speaking tube. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

11-03-19, 04:26 PM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,717 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	All top-DNS level functions are de facto under US control, and certain key servers, master servers or as some call it: the mount Olymp of the internet worldwide, are located in the US as well. NSA, DARPA, the govrnrment and its in parts secret legislation regarding the internet, obviously have no interest in handing this control over to others, to "the world". Clinton said he wanted to share control over it by I think 2000 (or he said thjat in 2000, I am not certain), but that did not happen until today. For Russia, for China, and less obvious: for the EU, also Asia and all the rest of the globe, this total US control is a potential big scale issue. Its as if the world were a dark cave that now is flooded with light so that all can see: and all six existing light switches being in hands of the Americans, and they do not share it and defend contorl over them with all their fangs and claws. Most cloud servers (most of them running under Linux, btw) also stand in the US, and thus fall under Us legislation. If the Us law authorizes US offices to scan and spy on cloud-stored data, every US company must comply, unconditionally. Other countries' for exampel data protection laws play no role here. Thats why I say its dangeorus to use cloud services for anything that goes beyond electronic holiday postcards and harmless chatter. I already said that indeed Russia's steps now can be used to switch off the internet's information and data communciaiton, it already seems to have been done during riots in and near Mscow repeatedly. So it is beign done in China. Still, even if both countries would be perfect liberal democracies, the American dominance in contorlling the web is a big problem for everybody except the US. Lats but not least, mind you: the uS can do like Russia and China as well. Just that the US can literally shut down all the global WWW, like it can switch of the GPS system as well regionally or globally. Except were Russian and Chinese navigation systems can jump in - or their natiopnal intranmets, so to speak, can replace global WWW functionality. So,, although it can be abused and certainly has been and will be abused, China and Russia nevertheless have legitimate interests to cope with the American options which to their own nations simply are a danger, a threat, and make them vulnerable to US blackmailing or cyber attacks. The Europeans should learn this lesson as well. Fast. Little Cesar at the latest marks the end of the old post-WW2 order of the West. The US is a rival now, no longer an ally. The "West" of the past seven decades - no longer exists. Taking turns in owning the keys to the Olympic servers, also is no solution, because then Olympic control over the WWW would end in the hands of right these regimes, and worse actors in the third world. And then these players would refuse to hand control over again at the end of their term. Lets face it, the Americans would act stupid if they voluntarily hand over this ace card of theirs. What stupoid would do that...? There is no solution to this mess, it is a natural conflict and a dilemma. The Europeans should adapt to the facts that define the situation: and come to terms with erecting their own internet infrastructure for servers and cloud computing - and keep the Americans locked out (which they would not like and would start to play dirty over, no doubt, its a topic of utmost geostrategic interest and economic core interests: its maximum essential). Still the Europeans should accept this conflict, and go for this. China already does. And now Russia does. Just Europe still sits in the starting block, and talks, and talks, and talks. And already is trailing behind by twenty years or so. Say goodby to international ambitions to be seen as one of the big players, Europe: just endless moral lecturing does not lead you anywhere. Who wants to be seen as a strong player at the table for the grand jeu, needs to be strong all by himself. And cyberspace, cloud computing, and the web, are three of the most important aspects of the grand jeu. But the Europeans play CO2 Gambit in a bit to checkmate themselves...! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.