Meet one of Russia's master puppet players

ikalugin · 02-12-19, 12:12 PM

This was over a decade ago. In the turbulent political climate we have he is currently not very relevant as a policy maker. In fact some of the people who made the decision to go forward with the Crimean operation (~5 years ago) are no longer running things but I guess such internal subtelties are lost to the external observer if they perceive the Russian political system as a grey monolyth.

Skybird · 02-12-19, 12:17 PM

It shows one certain thing.

Because not many high profiled names from that turmoil survived politically long enough to still be around - and stronger than ever.

And I think you perfectly play into his interests.

https://medium.com/@wmilam/the-theat...v-9dd8a15e0efb

This is not the reputation and biography of a man that is as insignificant as you try to make him appear. I lost track of many names coming and going in Russian politics, especially those the cameras of the world usually focus on in the news, I am not even that interested in them at all. His name I never have let slip. Too many strings and pointers in the past one and a half decade pointed at his direction.

ikalugin · 02-12-19, 12:33 PM

Surkov has never recovered since he got kicked from the internal policy seat in the administration due to the white ribbon protests. Since then there were already two different people in that position, who have set different policies and had different administrative style, with the most recent being what you would call a very long runner (he apointed Putin to his first big federal post - the head of the FSB).
Recently (past 5 years) Surkov only had a very minor role in coordinating the state and non state actors in Donbas, because broad foreighn policy was (and is) in other hands.

And this is just the normal policy maker rotation based on their performance and does not account for burn outs (ie Ivanov), so the actual fluctuation in the policy making is much, much more significant across the state.

Quote:

And I think you perfectly play into his interests.

Thing is, I know quite a few of those policy makers and have (as extension of my family) my own intersts in the broader game.
Which is why I sort of need to know who sets the course and what their style is.

Skybird · 02-12-19, 02:47 PM

Your minimising of Surkov'S role in the past years and the events on the Crimean do not match with the role he has played there as a masterminding script writer as reported in Western media already years ago.

But we have disagreed on the unfolding of the Crimean annexation in the past before. Maybe the disagreement on Surkov just is consistent, then.

It tells somehting about his talent or/and relevance if in a regime like Putin's you get kicked from higher ranks - but instead of disappearing in political oblivion making a comeback due to a nod by the great leader - who actually was the one resurrecting him. There were quite some names at thew top ten in the past 15 years who - once fallen from favor - never were seen or mentioned again.

Catfish · 02-12-19, 04:33 PM

I do trust Garri Kasparov a lot more

I've said since years that Russia tries to undermine its felt enemies with lies, deception and desinformation. Trump and brexit are only small outcomes, but if you look at "social" (lmao) media you get a glimpse what is really going on. It is destabilisation from the lowest level, and it works. The destruction of the EU is the wet dream of Putin, and he has his useful idiots everywhere. I do not want to villify or demonize him, he just supports the chaos and helps it along, supporting the far right wherever possible.

"The propaganda in the Internet age does not want to convince any longer of a certain point of view. She wants to exhaust your critical thinking skills instead. Putin with his Russian troll factories has mastered this masterly, I have to grant him that. In the old days of communism, propaganda was a black and white thinking: the good against the bad. What did not fit, was concealed. Today there is a flood instead of a dam. Putin is not a salesman of ideologies, I call him a dealer of doubt. That's him."

Excellent article (translation is... well.. Google)
How do you want to save democracy, Mr Kasparov?

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/th...gible-optimist

Skybird · 02-12-19, 05:52 PM

Whatever Putin does , has a purpose serving Russian goals (from his perception, which seems to match that of many Russians as well). Time spend on trying o villify Putin, is time wasted. It smnore important to see through the spider web of Russia'S decpeitons, and understand what Russias sees as its own interests.

What instead happens is demanding Russia to again behave stupid and to its disadvantage, as is it had no interests. But I think th yindeed are ahead in thinking. Their move to abandon their dollar reserves almost completely, is one such - while in the West "econiomists" openly rason about how to plunder private saviners most efficiently in order to gain a little bit more time to go on with the old nightmare party. When the FIAT money collapses, I bet Russia will be much better off to deal with thzat, than states in the West, for the mentioned reason and because it is more robust in self-sustaining and autarky - while the Western social communities and industries are hilariously depending on global production chains and have replaced advance stocks management (if that is the correct term) with on-time-delivery. Several Gerna car akers recently learnbewd the hard way how vulnerable this has made them to even micro crisis with their sub contractors.

I more or less fully share the Russian scepticism on globalization, I always was sceptical about that, and I never believed that it makes sense to make a potential rival strong in the present so that he can put me under pressure in the future. And the missionary spirit behind this, the flawed logic not even mentioned, just makes me laugh these days. Also, while some companies may benefit from it, globalization also produces an awful lot of loosers. It is no win-win-game for both, often not even a zero-sum game.

ikalugin · 02-12-19, 06:36 PM

O dear, some one takes Kasparov seriously. It is like taking Alex Johnes seriously as an authority on the US Government.

What makes me sad is how the West is attributing it's own internal issues (and behaviour of it's own people) to Russian trolls or other such causes.
This would damage the West by far more than any Russian actor could, with their scarce resources.
And it would be an even greater tragedy than the fall of the USSR should the Western open societies fail this way.

02-12-19, 12:12 PM	#1
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	This was over a decade ago. In the turbulent political climate we have he is currently not very relevant as a policy maker. In fact some of the people who made the decision to go forward with the Crimean operation (~5 years ago) are no longer running things but I guess such internal subtelties are lost to the external observer if they perceive the Russian political system as a grey monolyth. __________________ Grumpy as always.

02-12-19, 12:17 PM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,679 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It shows one certain thing. Because not many high profiled names from that turmoil survived politically long enough to still be around - and stronger than ever. And I think you perfectly play into his interests. https://medium.com/@wmilam/the-theat...v-9dd8a15e0efb This is not the reputation and biography of a man that is as insignificant as you try to make him appear. I lost track of many names coming and going in Russian politics, especially those the cameras of the world usually focus on in the news, I am not even that interested in them at all. His name I never have let slip. Too many strings and pointers in the past one and a half decade pointed at his direction. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-12-19, 02:47 PM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,679 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Your minimising of Surkov'S role in the past years and the events on the Crimean do not match with the role he has played there as a masterminding script writer as reported in Western media already years ago. But we have disagreed on the unfolding of the Crimean annexation in the past before. Maybe the disagreement on Surkov just is consistent, then. It tells somehting about his talent or/and relevance if in a regime like Putin's you get kicked from higher ranks - but instead of disappearing in political oblivion making a comeback due to a nod by the great leader - who actually was the one resurrecting him. There were quite some names at thew top ten in the past 15 years who - once fallen from favor - never were seen or mentioned again. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-12-19, 04:33 PM	#5
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,782 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	I do trust Garri Kasparov a lot more I've said since years that Russia tries to undermine its felt enemies with lies, deception and desinformation. Trump and brexit are only small outcomes, but if you look at "social" (lmao) media you get a glimpse what is really going on. It is destabilisation from the lowest level, and it works. The destruction of the EU is the wet dream of Putin, and he has his useful idiots everywhere. I do not want to villify or demonize him, he just supports the chaos and helps it along, supporting the far right wherever possible. "The propaganda in the Internet age does not want to convince any longer of a certain point of view. She wants to exhaust your critical thinking skills instead. Putin with his Russian troll factories has mastered this masterly, I have to grant him that. In the old days of communism, propaganda was a black and white thinking: the good against the bad. What did not fit, was concealed. Today there is a flood instead of a dam. Putin is not a salesman of ideologies, I call him a dealer of doubt. That's him." Excellent article (translation is... well.. Google) How do you want to save democracy, Mr Kasparov? https://www.newyorker.com/culture/th...gible-optimist __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 02-12-19 at 04:50 PM.*

02-12-19, 05:52 PM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,679 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Whatever Putin does , has a purpose serving Russian goals (from his perception, which seems to match that of many Russians as well). Time spend on trying o villify Putin, is time wasted. It smnore important to see through the spider web of Russia'S decpeitons, and understand what Russias sees as its own interests. What instead happens is demanding Russia to again behave stupid and to its disadvantage, as is it had no interests. But I think th yindeed are ahead in thinking. Their move to abandon their dollar reserves almost completely, is one such - while in the West "econiomists" openly rason about how to plunder private saviners most efficiently in order to gain a little bit more time to go on with the old nightmare party. When the FIAT money collapses, I bet Russia will be much better off to deal with thzat, than states in the West, for the mentioned reason and because it is more robust in self-sustaining and autarky - while the Western social communities and industries are hilariously depending on global production chains and have replaced advance stocks management (if that is the correct term) with on-time-delivery. Several Gerna car akers recently learnbewd the hard way how vulnerable this has made them to even micro crisis with their sub contractors. I more or less fully share the Russian scepticism on globalization, I always was sceptical about that, and I never believed that it makes sense to make a potential rival strong in the present so that he can put me under pressure in the future. And the missionary spirit behind this, the flawed logic not even mentioned, just makes me laugh these days. Also, while some companies may benefit from it, globalization also produces an awful lot of loosers. It is no win-win-game for both, often not even a zero-sum game. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-12-19, 06:36 PM	#7
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	O dear, some one takes Kasparov seriously. It is like taking Alex Johnes seriously as an authority on the US Government. What makes me sad is how the West is attributing it's own internal issues (and behaviour of it's own people) to Russian trolls or other such causes. This would damage the West by far more than any Russian actor could, with their scarce resources. And it would be an even greater tragedy than the fall of the USSR should the Western open societies fail this way. __________________ Grumpy as always.