Shall we talk about file sizes in mods?

Jeff-Groves · 11-26-18, 04:41 PM

BBW,
Take a look at the NBB_Nevada in the SH4 sea folder.
(I can send it to you if you don't have SH4)
You might recall I tested this just after SH4 came out as We were putting the BuV_Dock1 and BuV_Dock2 into GWX.

bigboywooly · 11-27-18, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

BBW,
Take a look at the NBB_Nevada in the SH4 sea folder.
(I can send it to you if you don't have SH4)
You might recall I tested this just after SH4 came out as We were putting the BuV_Dock1 and BuV_Dock2 into GWX.

Hmmm, have SH4. Will take a look

BigWalleye · 11-27-18, 10:10 AM

Some thoughts from an old programmer:

Once, a very, very long time ago, I worked on the operating system for a computer which had exactly 4096 words of random access memory. That's not a misprint! Not K. Not M. Four thousand ninety-six 18-bit words. (A beer for anyone who can correctly identify that machine!) Every instruction had to be carefully chosen. Every status bit had to be considered for maximum added functionality. For the size of the code, it required a huge investment in programmer effort.

Later, I worked on a real-time virtual OS which, for sound physical reasons, was based on magneitc drum storage. The latency time of the slowly-turning drum meant that data and executable storage had to be carefully optimized to be under the heads when needed. There was software to help, but any significant change to data structures meant that the entire drum had to be remapped. Again, massive amounts of effort to overcome hardware limitations.

Throughout the history of computing, huge amounts of human programmer effort have been used to compensate for the limitations of the existing hardware. I'm sure Ada Lovelace had the same problems.

When SH3 was developed, the 3D models taxed the generally available hardware to the point where load times were barely tolerable. As SH3 grew through mods, much more extensive modelling made use of improving machine capabilities, and load times stayed barely tolerable. So we are today.

I am sure it would be possible, through large amounts of modder effort, to optimize the 3D models with standard elements. This would likely make a significant improvement in load times, especially for older hardware. (Would it also add significant render times and stress older CPUs and GPUs?) But is this the most effective use of the time and talents of a small modding community? The Polish Engineer sez: "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it."

There are still many possible improvements to SH3 waiting to be done. In reverse enginnering, hsie did wonderful things, but much more is possible. (Compare to what TDW has done for SH5.) While the skill set for 3D modelling is not the same, still I suspect there are many useful projects to be done. (How about a complete interior?) I suggest that there are many projects which could use modder effort more effectively than cleaning up old inefficient models which do run adequately on current machines.

Truth in advertising: I am not an active modder, except for personal consumption. FWIW, this is just the opinon of a long-time software developer. YMMV.

And for all those who labor to make this old horse better and better every year, THANK YOU. Much love, and I will be grateful to use whatever you care to contribute to the community. God bless!

bigboywooly · 11-28-18, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

BBW,
Take a look at the NBB_Nevada in the SH4 sea folder.
(I can send it to you if you don't have SH4)
You might recall I tested this just after SH4 came out as We were putting the BuV_Dock1 and BuV_Dock2 into GWX.

The Nevada comes with the Uboat missions addon

Well I tried the line additions as in the Nevada cfg and left the M06A and M06X Sea folders the same as in the Nevada.

All 3 units show in mission editor, all 3 show in recognition manual but only the M06B shows in game

Museum CTDs when close to those merchants calling on the other 3d model

Back to the drawing board

Jeff-Groves · 11-28-18, 11:07 AM

Jammu looks kind of like this.

bigboywooly · 11-28-18, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Jammu looks kind of like this.

Ooh the harbour editor
It did exist then

Jeff-Groves · 11-28-18, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Ooh the harbour editor
It did exist then

Yes it did. In a way. You couldn't change anything. Just view it.
ref never finished it and I lost his source code long ago!

I still have his source code for Jammu and SH3 to SH4 but not being a Delhi programmer could never get them built.
I may try again at some point.

Jeff-Groves · 11-28-18, 11:59 AM

I'll have to play with the usemodel thing. I know it worked before as you pointed out at the time that one dock was submerged. So we scrapped the idea. To bad the old hang out is gone. There was an unreal amount of knowledge there!

bigboywooly · 11-28-18, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I'll have to play with the usemodel thing. I know it worked before as you pointed out at the time that one dock was submerged. So we scrapped the idea. To bad the old hang out is gone. There was an unreal amount of knowledge there!

Yes there was, masses of very useful knowledge

Love the signature pic btw

areo16 · 11-28-18, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Ooh the harbour editor
It did exist then

Digging...

This is the only editors I found in Maiks collection:

./RACERBOY (THE DARK WRAITH)/TDW_SDL_Editor_v1_2_0.zip
./SH3 TUTORIALS/HexEditor-Anleitung.pdf
./SH3 TUTORIALS/SH3_MISSION_EDITOR_EN.pdf
./SH3 TUTORIALS/sh3_missioneditor_v15.pdf

Don't see Harbour Editor anywhere.

(I used lftp to grep all files in Maiks collection)

Jeff-Groves · 11-28-18, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by areo16

Digging...

This is the only editors I found in Maiks collection:

./RACERBOY (THE DARK WRAITH)/TDW_SDL_Editor_v1_2_0.zip
./SH3 TUTORIALS/HexEditor-Anleitung.pdf
./SH3 TUTORIALS/SH3_MISSION_EDITOR_EN.pdf
./SH3 TUTORIALS/sh3_missioneditor_v15.pdf

Don't see Harbour Editor anywhere.

(I used lftp to grep all files in Maiks collection)

It was never released. Only a few people ever saw the Alpha version.
I had a copy along with the source code years ago. I've since lost even a working version.
You probably only see Jammu mentioned in some files as it was never released.
If memory serves me right? It would not import 3D models.
We'd do that in a hex editor then check with Jammu.

Jeff-Groves · 11-28-18, 02:10 PM

We had another program that would take an obj file and create a hex out put that we would cut and paste into a dat.
Yes. A lot of work! But it was the only way 10 years ago.

I bought my first NoteBook to do work with as I travelled a lot back then also.
I'd go back to the Motel rooms and edit files when the other Guys went to a Bar or something.
I have travelled with a NoteBook every since. I never know when an idea will hit me.

We had an SDL editor LONG before RacerBoy/TDW came around.

Jeff-Groves · 11-28-18, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

The Nevada comes with the Uboat missions addon

Well I tried the line additions as in the Nevada cfg and left the M06A and M06X Sea folders the same as in the Nevada.

All 3 units show in mission editor, all 3 show in recognition manual but only the M06B shows in game

Museum CTDs when close to those merchants calling on the other 3d model

Back to the drawing board

I'll change some files in my install.

bigboywooly · 11-28-18, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I'll change some files in my install.

If you need any files give me a shout, not sure what you have or dont have

11-28-18, 02:10 PM	#12
Jeff-Groves GLOBAL MODDING TERRORIST Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,654 Downloads: 137 Uploads: 0	We had another program that would take an obj file and create a hex out put that we would cut and paste into a dat. Yes. A lot of work! But it was the only way 10 years ago. I bought my first NoteBook to do work with as I travelled a lot back then also. I'd go back to the Motel rooms and edit files when the other Guys went to a Bar or something. I have travelled with a NoteBook every since. I never know when an idea will hit me. We had an SDL editor LONG before RacerBoy/TDW came around. Last edited by Jeff-Groves; 11-28-18 at 02:20 PM.

11-26-18, 04:41 PM	#1
Jeff-Groves GLOBAL MODDING TERRORIST Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,654 Downloads: 137 Uploads: 0	BBW, Take a look at the NBB_Nevada in the SH4 sea folder. (I can send it to you if you don't have SH4) You might recall I tested this just after SH4 came out as We were putting the BuV_Dock1 and BuV_Dock2 into GWX.

11-27-18, 10:10 AM	#3
BigWalleye Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: On the Eye-lond, mon! Posts: 1,987 Downloads: 465 Uploads: 0	Some thoughts from an old programmer: Once, a very, very long time ago, I worked on the operating system for a computer which had exactly 4096 words of random access memory. That's not a misprint! Not K. Not M. Four thousand ninety-six 18-bit words. (A beer for anyone who can correctly identify that machine!) Every instruction had to be carefully chosen. Every status bit had to be considered for maximum added functionality. For the size of the code, it required a huge investment in programmer effort. Later, I worked on a real-time virtual OS which, for sound physical reasons, was based on magneitc drum storage. The latency time of the slowly-turning drum meant that data and executable storage had to be carefully optimized to be under the heads when needed. There was software to help, but any significant change to data structures meant that the entire drum had to be remapped. Again, massive amounts of effort to overcome hardware limitations. Throughout the history of computing, huge amounts of human programmer effort have been used to compensate for the limitations of the existing hardware. I'm sure Ada Lovelace had the same problems. When SH3 was developed, the 3D models taxed the generally available hardware to the point where load times were barely tolerable. As SH3 grew through mods, much more extensive modelling made use of improving machine capabilities, and load times stayed barely tolerable. So we are today. I am sure it would be possible, through large amounts of modder effort, to optimize the 3D models with standard elements. This would likely make a significant improvement in load times, especially for older hardware. (Would it also add significant render times and stress older CPUs and GPUs?) But is this the most effective use of the time and talents of a small modding community? The Polish Engineer sez: "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it." There are still many possible improvements to SH3 waiting to be done. In reverse enginnering, hsie did wonderful things, but much more is possible. (Compare to what TDW has done for SH5.) While the skill set for 3D modelling is not the same, still I suspect there are many useful projects to be done. (How about a complete interior?) I suggest that there are many projects which could use modder effort more effectively than cleaning up old inefficient models which do run adequately on current machines. Truth in advertising: I am not an active modder, except for personal consumption. FWIW, this is just the opinon of a long-time software developer. YMMV. And for all those who labor to make this old horse better and better every year, THANK YOU. Much love, and I will be grateful to use whatever you care to contribute to the community. God bless!

11-28-18, 11:07 AM	#5
Jeff-Groves GLOBAL MODDING TERRORIST Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,654 Downloads: 137 Uploads: 0	Jammu looks kind of like this.

11-28-18, 11:59 AM	#8
Jeff-Groves GLOBAL MODDING TERRORIST Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,654 Downloads: 137 Uploads: 0	I'll have to play with the usemodel thing. I know it worked before as you pointed out at the time that one dock was submerged. So we scrapped the idea. To bad the old hang out is gone. There was an unreal amount of knowledge there!