Message_Log

[Mspot]

How come I never hear/see the following commands (in the dictionary_message_log)?

Torpedo is active! Bearing <BRG>
Torpedo is at <RANGE> yards and closing
WeaponReattack=Conn, fire control, weapon reattack on


Just curious.


I think such verbal commands would add a nice and cool element to the game.

[Delgard]

Seems like something a Commander would want to hear. Especially since the XO doesn't say much. Also, active sonar bearing and a number.

[SaltiDawg]

Other than qualitative "loudness," range to a closing torpedo is unknown in real life.

Also, the pinging of an active homing torpedo is not in the audible range.


So what you get in reality is a qualitative report, like, "Torpedo, Bearing 155, sounds near and closing." (Fact of the matter, it may not really be closing nor actually near. )

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by SaltiDawg

Other than qualitative "loudness," range to a closing torpedo is unknown in real life.

I would say this is not an absolute. If a torpedo is launched from several miles away and is straight running, there's no reason you couldn't get its range.

I would say these voice call-outs aren't included included because of the visual nature of the game. I've noticed that the sonarman says "torpedo in the water" only when the torpedo has gone active. Otherwise, it'll just swim on by.

[Delgard]

I still prefer the sonar operator to call out the bearing of the torpedo, vice that it came from a "sierra" location.

When I hear of Sierras and their bearing, I am working to classify the sound. Being busy with that, I no longer specifically know what bearing they are on...precisely, but I am just moving to fire a torpedo back at the origin of the enemy torpedo. If I can react with slow speed, turns, depth changes, etc. I can still avoid the enemy torpedo while not breaking the wire to mine.

In all this, I am also visualizing everything in my head so that commands are faster, more accurate, and definitive to put my boat in a better position.

[SaltiDawg]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

I would say this is not an absolute. If a torpedo is launched from several miles away and is straight running, there's no reason you couldn't get its range.
...

Just how would you do that? ("That" being perform TMA on, say, a 40+ Kt broadband noise maker that the other guy shot at a point in space and time that hopefully will intercept your original course and speed extended in a predicted location.)


In my world when we detected an exercise torpedo, we got a bearing, a description, a guess as to closeness, and we immediately followed Torpedo Evasion Protocols depending on relative bearing on which weapon was detected. (Neither me nor anyone else here has ever been on the receiving end of a war shot.)



In the real world, it ain't gonna happen.

[Mspot]

Not being a submariner, I will leave the aspects of real life to the sumaroners, and the decision to include or not up to the game company.


Of the many aspects of this game I enjoy, the visual "nature" rates very high.


In terms of real life, well, from what I understand, this game is not real life -- though much or all of this game may indeed be accurately modeled.


Still, I would assume that, to some extent, those voice call outs could be included without breaking anything -- real or imagined. Regardless, they would be a cool and welcome addition -- to some of us, anyway.

[shipkiller1]

Originally Posted by Mspot

How come I never hear/see the following commands (in the dictionary_message_log)?

Torpedo is active! Bearing <BRG>
Torpedo is at <RANGE> yards and closing
WeaponReattack=Conn, fire control, weapon reattack on

As stated by one other here, the sound energy is not in the aural range of a human. There are three ways to know if ownships weapon has gone active or is active.



1. The guidance wire is good and reporting telemetry.
2. The active energy is picked up by the Active Intercept Receiver.
3. If the wire has been severed, then the Fire Control System (FCS) will indicate when it has calculated when the torpedo has run far enough to get to the enable point.


The simulation does do this for ownship weapons. The ownship weapon color changes to white when active.


When the simulation reports a launch transient from S-X, the approach officer SHOULD know in his head what the bearing to all contacts or at least the contact of interest. The simulation also shows a brief (1 sec) green torpedo at the range and bearing of the contact at time of fire.


A "Torpedo in the Water" call is always given in the bearing to the incoming weapon.


The reason you do not hear anything from the XO is because his job in the Fire Control Tracking party is Solution and Contact Management, NOT driving the ship.


In all actuality, Own Ship (OS) and the FCS does not know just which contact the torpedo has re-acquired on. If to contacts are close together it could acquire on another contact.

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

I would say this is not an absolute. If a torpedo is launched from several miles away and is straight running, there's no reason you couldn't get its range.

I would say these voice call-outs aren't included included because of the visual nature of the game. I've noticed that the sonarman says "torpedo in the water" only when the torpedo has gone active. Otherwise, it'll just swim on by.

In the old days before digital contact plots, the plotter would lay down a bearing line to the incoming fire, and if he has the time will continue to do so. Yes, given enough time, you could determine the torpedo course and range. With the newer digital FCS, if sonar assigns a tracker to the incoming acoustic energy and if the tracker can follow it (based on ping interval), then the Fire Control party could attempt to generate a solution. Usually, they do not have the time.


Getting a range to a contact is the hardest and most time consuming area of TMA. There are no short cuts........except active, and water conditions are a HUGE factor in that. Some days you can get an active return at 50K. Some days, no return at all, even on a contact at >10K.



Torpedo in the water calls are only generated when the acoustic energy is directed at Own Ship and is of the expected strength.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by SaltiDawg

Just how would you do that? ("That" being perform TMA on, say, a 40+ Kt broadband noise maker that the other guy shot at a point in space and time that hopefully will intercept your original course and speed extended in a predicted location.)


In my world when we detected an exercise torpedo, we got a bearing, a description, a guess as to closeness, and we immediately followed Torpedo Evasion Protocols depending on relative bearing on which weapon was detected. (Neither me nor anyone else here has ever been on the receiving end of a war shot.)



In the real world, it ain't gonna happen.

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

In the old days before digital contact plots, the plotter would lay down a bearing line to the incoming fire, and if he has the time will continue to do so. Yes, given enough time, you could determine the torpedo course and range. With the newer digital FCS, if sonar assigns a tracker to the incoming acoustic energy and if the tracker can follow it (based on ping interval), then the Fire Control party could attempt to generate a solution. Usually, they do not have the time.


Getting a range to a contact is the hardest and most time consuming area of TMA. There are no short cuts........except active, and water conditions are a HUGE factor in that. Some days you can get an active return at 50K. Some days, no return at all, even on a contact at >10K.



Torpedo in the water calls are only generated when the acoustic energy is directed at Own Ship and is of the expected strength.

Yes, I do know getting range is the hardest bit. I do a fair amount of manual TMA in Dangerous Waters, which I know is a video game and not the real thing. Let me clarify what I said: mathematically and theoretically speaking, it's not impossible to get the range of a torpedo, but given what you guys have said, highly improbable in practice.

Or is it mathematically impossible if the torpedo is for all intents and purposes on an intercept track with you and you can't do legs?

[SaltiDawg]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

...
Or is it mathematically impossible if the torpedo is for all intents and purposes on an intercept track with you and you can't do legs?

That is my opinion. But, in view of some of the good comments above it may be something that you'd do in the GAME... but doesn't the GAME show you the track/position of the incoming weapon?

[shipkiller1]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

Yes, I do know getting range is the hardest bit. I do a fair amount of manual TMA in Dangerous Waters, which I know is a video game and not the real thing. Let me clarify what I said: mathematically and theoretically speaking, it's not impossible to get the range of a torpedo, but given what you guys have said, highly improbable in practice.

Or is it mathematically impossible if the torpedo is for all intents and purposes on an intercept track with you and you can't do legs?

Its not mathematically impossible. You just do not have the time, mostly.


Added to the fact that you realistically cannot classify a launch transient outside of, lets say 5k... The sonar operator does not know what he heard.. if he heard anything...



TMA in DW????


I do not mind how all this is modeled in the game. Its just a game anyway and not anywhere true to life.

I just wish I could shoot a torpedo at flank like I am supposed to......what we do in real life...

[ET2SN]

Chazly; Let's assume we're in DW and you have a sonarman with a waterfall display. What's he seeing and hearing?

OK, he picked up a torpedo in the water.
He needs to tell the OOD something, NOW.
He doesn't have time to calculate range or course, he just has the data.

In terms of DW, all he has time to report is a TIW, its bearing, and whether it sounds like its close or not. Its then up to the OOD to initiate an evasion of some kind.

Keep it practical.
There isn't time to worry about TMA when the bleeping thing was aimed at you.

[SaltiDawg]

What ET2SN said!

[Julhelm]

IIRC we left out these messages because with the amount of fire usually going on, the audio and message log would be really cluttered with stuff you can see visually anyway.

[Delgard]

Thank-you.