[REL] Real ASW Mod

[Niume]

Any progress? for WAC 5.0

[gap]

Originally Posted by Niume

Any progress? for WAC 5.0

@ padi

Niume anticipated me: during the last few days I have been wondering if you had made any progress with your mod. Since the last time we have discussed about it, I have added a few new models to my collection of 3D ASW ordnance. Models I have (more or less) ready so far are:

• US 300 lb depth charge Mark 6 / Mark 6 Mod 1 + throwing arbor
• US 600 lb depth charge Mark 7 / Mark 7 Mod 1
• US 200 lb depth charges Mark 9 / Mark 9 Mod 1 and Mark 9 Mod 2 + throwing arbors
• GB 300 lb depth charge Type D Mark III (this one was a WWI depth charge but, according to navweaps.com still in service as late as 1940)
• GB 290 lb depth charges Mark VII and Mark VII heavy
• GB hedgehog / US mousetrap projectile (according to John Campbell's "Naval Weapons of WWII" , a version of the latter was modified for being fired or dropped from patrol aircraft)
• GB squid laucher and projectile (those models are already part of a mod by LGN1)
• GB 60 lb HE and 25 lb AP RP-3 rockets + rail
• US 3.5-Inch and 5-inch FFAR rockets + rail (I hope at some moment my rocket models will be merged with Kendras' WIP rockets mod)
• GB 100 lb A/S bombs Mk. III, IV and VI
• GB 250 lb A/S bombs Mk. III and IV
• GB 500 lb A/S bomb Mk. IV
• US 325 lb Mk. 17 / 350 lb Mk. 44 depth bomb
• US 350 lb Mk. 41 / Mk. 47 depth bombs
• US 325 lb Mk. 53 / 350 lb Mk. 54 depth bomb
• US 650 lb Mk. 29 and Mk. 37 depth bombs
• US 650 lb Mk. 38 / 700 lb Mk. 49 depth bomb

Moreover, I recommend you to read carefully the following short essay I have found on the lethality/damage radii of underwater ordnance:

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Su..._Lethality.htm

other useful rediangs on the same topic:

Andrzej Grzadziela - Model of Impact Underwater Detonation, Journal of KONES Powertrain and Transport, Vol. 19, No. 2 2012
David Sulfredge, Robert Morris, Robert Sanders - Calculating the Effect of Surface or Underwater Explosions - Oak Ridge National Laboratory, January 2005
E. Kowsarinia, Y Alizadeh, H. S. Salavati Pour - Experimental Evaluation of Blast Wave Parameters in Underwater Explosions of Hexogen Charges - 2011
Frederick A. Costanzo - Underwater Explosion Phenomena and Shock Physics - Naval Surface Warfare Center Carderock Division, UERD, February 2010
Robert H. Cole - Underwater Explosions - Princeton University Press (1948)
Schneider, Nathan A. - Prediction of surface ship response to severe underwater explosions - Monterey, California. Naval Postgraduate School, June, 2003
Warren D. Reid - The Response of Surface Ships to Underwater Explosions - DSTO (1996)

Of course we cannot simulate the complexity of real shokwave damage but at level required for gaming purposes we can get relatively close to it, and the articles above contain most of what we need to know on the real thing

[padi]

Originally Posted by gap

@ padi



Niume anticipated me: during the last few days I have been wondering if you had made any progress with your mod. Since the last time we have discussed about it, I have added a few new models to my collection of 3D ASW ordnance. Models I have (more or less) ready so far are:

• US 300 lb depth charge Mark 6 / Mark 6 Mod 1 + throwing arbor
  
• US 600 lb depth charge Mark 7 / Mark 7 Mod 1
  
• US 200 lb depth charges Mark 9 / Mark 9 Mod 1 and Mark 9 Mod 2 + throwing arbors
  
• GB 300 lb depth charge Type D Mark III (this one was a WWI depth charge but, according to navweaps.com still in service as late as 1940)
  
• GB 290 lb depth charges Mark VII and Mark VII heavy
  
• GB hedgehog / US mousetrap projectile (according to John Campbell's "Naval Weapons of WWII" , a version of the latter was modified for being fired or dropped from patrol aircraft)
  
• GB squid laucher and projectile (those models are already part of a mod by LGN1)
  
• GB 60 lb HE and 25 lb AP RP-3 rockets + rail
  
• US 3.5-Inch and 5-inch FFAR rockets + rail (I hope at some moment my rocket models will be merged with Kendras' WIP rockets mod)
  
• GB 100 lb A/S bombs Mk. III, IV and VI
  
• GB 250 lb A/S bombs Mk. III and IV
  
• GB 500 lb A/S bomb Mk. IV
  
• US 325 lb Mk. 17 / 350 lb Mk. 44 depth bomb
  
• US 350 lb Mk. 41 / Mk. 47 depth bombs
  
• US 325 lb Mk. 53 / 350 lb Mk. 54 depth bomb
  
• US 650 lb Mk. 29 and Mk. 37 depth bombs
  
• US 650 lb Mk. 38 / 700 lb Mk. 49 depth bomb
  

Do you think that it is also possible to simulate the Mark X DC?
I have tried that years ago but coudn't archive a working result...

[gap]

Originally Posted by padi

Do you think that it is also possible to simulate the Mark X DC?
I have tried that years ago but coudn't archive a working result...

mmm... I wish we could, though it doesn't seem to have been used very much during the war, anyway there are quite a few con's in adding it in game:

Its big kill range meant that the Mark X DC could only be used against deep targets. Its slow sinking speed allowed the launching ship to get clear of the explosion while sailing at full speed. I doubt that AI destroyers would manage the same tactic, and they would end up suiciding themselves more often than they hit any target.

This DC was lauched from 21 in torpedo tubes. We should invent some trick in order to simulate this in game.

We don't have a 3d model for it, and so far I couldn't find any picture/drawing or even measures of it.

I we find a way to get round the problems above, I say why not? Maybe we will get some nice idea, or some subsim comrade will give us some clue. In the meanwhile, my opinion is to focus on other and more important aspects...

[padi]

Originally Posted by Niume

Any progress? for WAC 5.0

No, until now because of the trouble with rowi58 who is behaving like a child I was very annoyed and lost interest in SH3 at times.
Meanwhile, the disappointment over his behavior is gone and I focus again on SH3.

I will DL WAC this week and adapt the modfiles to it if the mod looks like an improvement over ccom, what I think should be the case...

@gap

I'm online today for the first time in many months, so I have to look at your mod first before I could say anything about it and the useness of the models.
But they sound really interesting and useful!
Are they made with the same file structure like the Stock-DCs?

[gap]

Originally Posted by padi

@gap

I'm online today for the first time in many months, so I have to look at your mod first before I could say anything about it and the useness of the models.
But they sound really interesting and useful!
Are they made with the same file structure like the Stock-DCs?

No mod so far: just 3D meshes. Their structure can be customized depending on the need. In general, I like keeping my models for SHIII as "modular" as possible so that, if need be, I can re-use the same parts many times, without need of re-importing the every time

[gap]

Originally Posted by gap

No mod so far: just 3D meshes. Their structure can be customized depending on the need. In general, I like keeping my models for SHIII as "modular" as possible so that, if need be, I can re-use the same parts many times, without need of re-importing the every time

Let me give you an example of what I mean for "modular" models. Let's say that we are importing different throwers and DC marks in game. As long as we store them in the same file, there is no need that we import each DC model two times (one for the charge loaded on the thrower and one for the actual ammo depth charge): the same mesh can be linked both to the thrower model and to the DC ammo node. This approach will be very useful since your mod features different thrower and DC marks: using it we can create many combinations by still keeping file size acceptable. Moreover, by keeping the harbor mesh saparate from the DC mesh, we can do harbors to disappear once the DC enters in the water using the visible underwater render controller. I hope I am making myself clear...

[padi]

Originally Posted by gap

Let me give you an example of what I mean for "modular" models. Let's say that we are importing different throwers and DC marks in game. As long as we store them in the same file, there is no need that we import each DC model two times (one for the charge loaded on the thrower and one for the actual ammo depth charge): the same mesh can be linked both to the thrower model and to the DC ammo node. This approach will be very useful since your mod features different thrower and DC marks: using it we can create many combinations by still keeping file size acceptable. Moreover, by keeping the harbor mesh saparate from the DC mesh, we can do harbors to disappear once the DC enters in the water using the visible underwater render controller. I hope I am making myself clear...

Yes you are very clear.
I think that I was unclear.

I answer tomorrow because the names for the different labels in the file structure I need to explain my error aren't coming to my mind...

[gap]

Originally Posted by padi

Yes you are very clear.
I think that I was unclear.

I answer tomorrow because the names for the different labels in the file structure I need to explain my error aren't coming to my mind...

Okay, I am looking forward to your answers

[padi]

Originally Posted by gap

Let me give you an example of what I mean for "modular" models. Let's say that we are importing different throwers and DC marks in game. As long as we store them in the same file, there is no need that we import each DC model two times (one for the charge loaded on the thrower and one for the actual ammo depth charge): the same mesh can be linked both to the thrower model and to the DC ammo node. This approach will be very useful since your mod features different thrower and DC marks: using it we can create many combinations by still keeping file size acceptable. Moreover, by keeping the harbor mesh saparate from the DC mesh, we can do harbors to disappear once the DC enters in the water using the visible underwater render controller. I hope I am making myself clear...

I have meant the following:

In Stock a DC Node in the DC_R_KG.dat is structured in the following order:

DCRack
-> DCRack_base_L
-> DCRack_barrel01
-> SHD_DCRack_barrel01
-> DCRack_BarrelFall01
-> SHD_DCRack_BarrelFall01
-> DCRack_BarrelFall
-> SHD_DCRack_BarrelFall
-> crik
-> stopper
-> parghie
-> SHD_DCRack_base_L
-> DC_man
-> DC_man_cask

My question was if you have structured your models that the existing 3D-models are replaced through these and work so or whether the file structure is built up differently.

As long as we store them in the same file, there is no need that we import each DC model two times (one for the charge loaded on the thrower and one for the actual ammo depth charge):

For me that sentence sounds like that isn´t the case, which would be an improvement in keeping the filesize small if models could be used more than once
Quite apart from that I´m always thankful for any help and suggestion in improving the mod an my knowledge of the game so I´m happy that a person with your know how want to help me

[gap]

Originally Posted by padi

In Stock a DC Node in the DC_R_KG.dat is structured in the following order...

Okay, my example was about Y- and K-guns. DC racks are a bit more complicated because they have keyframe animations that possibly we will need to fine tune a bit for our updated models. Before S3d, hex-editing them and checking every little change in game would have been a little nightmare, but now things are much easier. Here are my notes on the stock DC rack structure:

• DCRack_base_L This node contains the rack itself (static)
  • DCRack_barrel01 This node contains the last four DC barrels (with keyframe animations)
    • SHD_DCRack_barrel01
  • DCRack_BarrelFall01 This node contains the first DC barrel, ready for being dropped (with keyframe animations)
    • SHD_DCRack_BarrelFall01
  • DCRack_BarrelFall Same as <DCRack_BarrelFall01>, but a different stage of DC's dropping animation (with keyframe animations, when we se it, we don't see <DCRack_BarrelFall01>)
    • SHD_DCRack_BarrelFall
  • crik This node contains the release lever (with keyframe animations)
  • stopper This node contains the DC stopper (with keyframe animations)
    • parghie This node contains the shaft connecting the release lever with the DC stopper (with keyframe animations)
  • SHD_DCRack_base_L
• DC_man This node contains the sailor manning the DC rack (with mesh animations)
• DC_man_cask This node contains sailor's helmet (with keyframe animations)

nodes whose name starts with "SHD", can be ignored at this stage, as they are used for dynamic shadows that are disabled/buggy in SHIII.

Originally Posted by padi

My question was if you have structured your models that the existing 3D-models are replaced through these and work so or whether the file structure is built up differently.

No, I didn't because so far I have only modelled DC barrels and other ASW ordnance, but I have not looked into racks/throwers (yet). I will look into my books for informations on them. I hope I can get some good drawing of them, that I can use for creating realistic models of them. Please, let me know if you have any valuable information on them (types used, sizes, specs and possibly drawings)

Originally Posted by padi

For me that sentence sounds like that isn´t the case, which would be an improvement in keeping the filesize small if models could be used more than once

Definitely that's something we can and we need to achieve

Originally Posted by padi

Quite apart from that I´m always thankful for any help and suggestion in improving the mod an my knowledge of the game so I´m happy that a person with your know how want to help me

My pleasure padi. As I have said yesterday, I have the most important US and British depth charges basically ready for being imported in game. Let's focus on the throwing/dropping mechanisms now. Once I have modelled one or two of them, we can start importing them into your mod together with the DC barrels, and see how they look/work

EDIT: I have just checked for information the website of the Historic Naval Ships Association and I have found the following documents on US DC tracks and projectors:

http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/destroye...ctor/index.htm (alternative link: https://maritime.org/doc/destroyer/d...ctor/index.htm)
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/destroye...tor1/index.htm (alternative link: https://maritime.org/doc/destroyer/d...tor1/index.htm)
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/destroye...rack/index.htm (alternative link: https://maritime.org/doc/destroyer/depthtrack/index.htm)

The pamphlet on the DC racks is dated September 1952 though. Possibly some racks developped after the end of WWII are listed there, and some early racks considered obsolete but still in use during the war have been omitted

EDIT 2: found on navweaps.com some additional information on DC racks/projectors used by the main nations involved in WWII:

UK
USA
USSR
France
Germany
Italy
Japan

[padi]

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, my example was about Y- and K-guns. DC racks are a bit more complicated because they have keyframe animations that possibly we will need to fine tune a bit for our updated models. Before S3d, hex-editing them and checking every little change in game would have been a little nightmare, but now things are much easier. Here are my notes on the stock DC rack structure:

• DCRack_base_L This node contains the rack itself (static)
  • DCRack_barrel01 This node contains the last four DC barrels (with keyframe animations)
    • SHD_DCRack_barrel01
  • DCRack_BarrelFall01 This node contains the first DC barrel, ready for being dropped (with keyframe animations)
    • SHD_DCRack_BarrelFall01
  • DCRack_BarrelFall Same as <DCRack_BarrelFall01>, but a different stage of DC's dropping animation (with keyframe animations, when we se it, we don't see <DCRack_BarrelFall01>)
    • SHD_DCRack_BarrelFall
  • crik This node contains the release lever (with keyframe animations)
  • stopper This node contains the DC stopper (with keyframe animations)
    • parghie This node contains the shaft connecting the release lever with the DC stopper (with keyframe animations)
  • SHD_DCRack_base_L
• DC_man This node contains the sailor manning the DC rack (with mesh animations)
• DC_man_cask This node contains sailor's helmet (with keyframe animations)

nodes whose name starts with "SHD", can be ignored at this stage, as they are used for dynamic shadows that are disabled/buggy in SHIII.



No, I didn't because so far I have only modelled DC barrels and other ASW ordnance, but I have not looked into racks/throwers (yet). I will look into my books for informations on them. I hope I can get some good drawing of them, that I can use for creating realistic models of them. Please, let me know if you have any valuable information on them (types used, sizes, specs and possibly drawings)



Definitely that's something we can and we need to achieve



My pleasure padi. As I have said yesterday, I have the most important US and British depth charges basically ready for being imported in game. Let's focus on the throwing/dropping mechanisms now. Once I have modelled one or two of them, we can start importing them into your mod together with the DC barrels, and see how they look/work

Sounds fantastic!

I have only found this link for drawings about Racks in the past, but I´m searching for more: http://ship-model-today.de/sd072.htm

Thanks again!

P.S.: I don´t know, if that is useful, but I have found these drawings/pictures of Racks and K-Guns:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMUS_ASW.php
http://www.ship-model-today.de/auk-009.jpg
https://www.ussslater.org/tour/weapons/racks/racks.html
https://www.ussslater.org/tour/weapo.../dpthchrg.html
https://www.ussslater.org/tour/weapons/k-gun/k-gun.html