We just do not have the convoys correct! What can we do?

[Wulfmann]

I have really played with improving the RND file in an attempt at realism.
While I can state mine is much more difficult I know it does not properly mirror what a real U-Boat went through.
But, is it even possible?

The heart of the U-Boat war was the convoy battles. That is also where we lack realism more than any other area in SH3, IMO

In 1943 there could be as many as 30 escorts for a convoy followed by a hunter killer group ready to take over as each group of 3 or 4 escorts kept a U-Boat down. They could then return to their convoy work and let the killers finish the job as planes circled above.

We can not do that.

For one, we are alone, there are no other wolfs to relieve us by attacking the other side.
Not only that the escorts simply drop their DCes on your position nearly every time.
After 3 ½ hours last night my boat was sunk but oddly there were no DCes exploding when the damaged occurred. Was gibt es hier? I cannot guess as to what happened, explosions did not give off sound this time?

I had made this a carefully watched series of attacks to try and ascertain what actually happened. I remained at 240 meters the entire time and each time I heard splashes I would go flank speed and turn either 45% or 90% and every time the bombs exploded where I would have been had I not turned.
Or, I did stints at slow speed and turned in the same way.
I remained in silent mode
This worked for the entire time every time.

Some specs
GW 1.1 (without the 1.1 basic cfg so I don’t have to worry about saves at the wrong time)
My GW RND is modified for many more escorts as well as other convoy tweaks.
All escorts are veteran (crew rating =3) in my RND from beginning to end..
The 1943-45 convoys have at least 2 escorts on each side and at the rear or 7 escorts total (this one had 8).

It should be expected in this time period for 3 to 4 A/S ships to be attacking you. But, they always drop right on top of you and that is simply not realistic.

So, is there a way to make them less sure of your position? Going and staying silent means you move slower but not once did it prevent them from making perfect drops only that the drops ended up exploding closer to my turned position and did not prevent them from dropping on my new position, silent or flank ahead.

I would like to find a way to actually have real convoy attacks, with real possibilities.
That means 20-25 escorts ringing them making it hell but if 7 escorts are impossible then what is the point?

My next project RND will be to double the escorts and make them all 2 rated crews. Just to see what will happen and how.

I have tried less escorts but the fact is we can homi the sole flank escort, attack the merchants and reload the stern tube with another T5 in time for the other escort to be in range. (Usually the lead and far escort will not intervene in a large convoy)
Results?
Very unrealistic but, more satisfying for those that want to win PC games.

Does anyone know of a way to mix up the DC drops so they are not so accurate therefore more realistic?
What files dictate the DC accuracy?
It seems something should control this.
There needs to be a way to improve this so we can replicate the 1943-45 convoy era better.

Any ideas? Anyone, anyone??

Wulfmann

[FUBAR295]

Wulfmann,

It is not so much the destroyers accuracy, but the trick to avoid them altogether. I think your staying at 240 meters has some bearing with your problem also, as it may be to deep and not leaving enough room to go deeper if needed before hitting crush depth.

You may want to try this :
After firing off your eels, dive immediately at flank to 180 meters and off to the right or left between 35 and 90 degrees away from the closest Destroyer. Don't hang around to see what happens. Listen for any hits. Once at 180 meters go to silent and ahead slow. Once alerted that DCs have hit the water dive to 200 meters or slightly more at full speed and alter course 35 to 45 degrees and try to get between the Destroyers and the convoy. At 200 meters continue at full until all the DC's have gone off, usually above and behind. Slow back down to slow and come back up to 180 meters, continue working your way toward the convoy, using their background noise ( not sure if the AI is fooled by this to any degree if at all, but it helps me stay in contact with the convoy and not falling to far behind it). Also, try not to make to many extreme turns which causes you to lose any headway you have on the Destroyers. Continue this process until well away from the destroyers or they lose contact and leave.

I have had much success using this tactic with two destroyers. One or two additional destroyers do cause problematic issues with getting clear of all of them, it takes way longer. I have at times experienced being kept submerged before the air or batteries give out, so the tactic is not foolproof.

Hope this help.

Good Hunting,
FUBAR

[Wulfmann]

Ah well, I was only using one example from one mission. I have been rebuilding the RND.mis file and using different mods to try and duplicate what real U-Boats recorded as to how they dealt with things.
You did not relay any relevant information such as what you escort crew ratings are. Are you referring to 1944? 1939?
I have been playing this everyday for over a year and tweaking constantly in search of historic comparability not just a way to beat the game. I could edit the files to beat the game. I want to get results that compare with reality. That is my point.
I seriously doubt, (no offence intended) that you have attacked a 1944 convoy with 8 veteran rated escorts and have 4 take turns making their runs. I have lasted over 4 hours and have also slipped away. About one time in 5.
PM your email add and I will send you a RND mis file that I assure you what you suggested will not only not work you will feel much more like a read from Iron Coffins or Das Boot.
My problem is that I can make it too hard but not as accurate as what I read. I would like to have 20 escorts in a 1943 convoy and be able to attack in some manner from outside and not have escorts that always drop right on my spot and always at the depth I am at.
Yes I have tried changing the depth up and down. Yes I have hidden in a convoy. I have tried all kinds of things but when they do not conform to what real U-Boats did I am playing a PC game not simulating a convoy attack and that is what I am trying to tweak.
I am wondering if there is a way to alter the settings on depth charging so they are not so accurate for both position and depth.
I am not trying to succeed in a mission. I am trying to make it so more realistic events occur than presently do.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

how does the game respond to the adding of extra destroyers marked as escort=false

this might be a way to bump up the numbers to realistic levels
(on a percentage of convoys that did have much higher numbers of escorts than stock--alledgedly just to avoid getting into some tedious realism debate about this)
would be eye candy only -- sadly having realistic numbers of escorts just results in relative anarchy..

possible experiments to try?

no doubt allready tried but---

greater ship spacing to allow for higher number of active escorts..
specific additional escorts with reduced sensor capacity turning circle top speed etc to make up the numbers..
greater use of crew capacity on additional escorts to even out the difficulty--crew capacity of novice etc on additional escorts--
expert on remaining DD's

removal of most of the DC capacity on additional escorts--
i agree most convoys i've read about had huge amounts of escorts well above stock numbers..some convoys had more escorts than merchants...or at least the balance was pretty close..50/50 60/40 70/30 etc etc

i did pretty much the same thing as you i went thru the RND file and added at least two extra escorts to every convoy..(what a job argghh) any more and the gameplay just got so messy that the atmosphere was lost..

[Wulfmann]

Some good points.
Having too many veteran crewed escorts insure your destruction no matter what. But, that happens at 7 escorts One in the lead and 2 on each flank..
What I search for is something that better resembles reality. I believe reducing the sensors is worth a try because in so doing we can increase the number of escorts.
We can have 20 and that does not cause a traffic jam because they simply fan out which would also be somewhat real.
Increasing the ship spacing makes it less real as they were never as wide as we need to have them. Adding more columns is real but places the wing escorts too far away to respond as if they do not know a ship was sunk at all.
I want the escorts coming after me. I want a bunch of them but I don’t want them to drop DCes like they are fire and forget homing cans. I love it extremely difficult but I want a chance and I want it in a manner than simulates reality (as we believe it is from what sources tell us)
I will run the first patrols tonight on the escort increased number/reduced crew rating to all “2� and see what happens.
I am betting further senor quality will need reduction.
Foe me the fun is in 1943-45 where the competition is tough!
Wulfmann

[Myxale]

After reading you Kaleun-Buffs i always feel so motivated.



Keep us posted so we can see if this is the right direction to go. I always wondered if there is a chance to add realistic numbers of DD's to a convoy. Without messing the traffic up to or the AI silly.

Good luck!

[FUBAR295]

Wulfmann,

I understand what your getting at, but at present, I feel there are certain limitations that is within SHIII that prevents your narvana regardless of how you tweak, into your envisioned simulation toward realism. I admire your drive towards that end. Myself, I am not to terribly technically savy regarding the current programming of SHIII, though I do have some understanding of it. I leave the tinkering to others more talented in that aspect. I will PM you as I would like to try out your RND file and my way of tactics.

CB makes a very valid points to having realistic escort numbers. I also feel that the AI currently can not be altered correctly to avoid pinpoint drops. From my understanding it is either pinpoint drops or a very stupid AI with no real middle ground. No challenge with a dummied up AI, so I rather deal with the pinpoint drops and develope tactics to deal with it. The same issue was experienced with SHII, the uber Destroyers, but CB came up with a great file which made the escort behavior more realistic, but not perfect to what you have in mind. I believe Teddy Bar and crew will be looking looking at the escort behavior in the near future. Maybe their fix and your tweaking, you will come up with something close to what you envision.

Regarding your scenario, I am speaking of veteran Destroyer crews and using this tactic from 1939 to 1945 and 100% realism with NYGM TW. With three or more escorts on you, your chances of survival become slim but no impossible, more than three, it is very problematic, which I like as a mental work out, but try my very best to avoid. It is not a fool proof tactic by any means as I have indicated earlier and do not claim it to be, with a diminishing success rate as the war goes on. That is, I believe, what was built into SHIII by the developers. I see also, you have developed and or tried something simular. This formula of tactics works best for me and has been proven to be the most effective. It may be I have a better knack with it as opposed to others, I do not know. No offense taken, but you have no idea of how or what my game play entails or what I have encountered, I am not one to go about bragging. Yes, I have survived the mass gang up by escorts, which gives one a great deal of satisfaction. And, yes I have not survived those gang ups also to my great disappointment. I too have experimented with various other tactics with less than satisfactory results. What I do currently works the best for me given the current parameters within SHIII as I have it set up. And just maybe it may not work well or not at all with your tweaking, that I look forward to trying.

Good Hunting,
FUBAR

[Wulfmann]

It is certainly too early to judge by one patrol on my first camapign with this RND.mis file.

But I would rate this one of the five best patrols I have ever done.

What I did was edit every escort both in convoys and hunter groups to 2 crew rating from veteran 3 in the RND. I then added 3-5 more escorts for each convoy meaning a 1944 (The year I started) has 9-12 escorts.
I left all the SCR and single patrol ships 3 as well as the lead DD in each hunter group (plus one more in every other hunter group).

I sank a C3 loner on the way out before intercepting a convoy.
Because ithe convoy kept turning I was not able to make contact until nearly midnight. There were so many escorts in the screen all I could do was fire a long range fan. So long the 2 FATIIs did not reach it and turned away before the merchants.
But, I scored one hit and disabled a tanker.
I took out one escort with a T5 and tried to zig zag my way to get at the tanker.
I fired 2 T3s at a DE to sink it and sank another DD with the reloaded T5 before I put my last fish into the tanker, thankfully. With 3 escorts sunk that still meant plenty for revenge and I felt like a magnet with hordes of DDs acting like junk metal.
I dove to 260meters.
Since these were 2 rated I hoped they would be a bit easier on me but not too much. They were hardly any less potent than a 3 rated but they were just enough. After 3 real hours 3 had returned to the convoy and that left one that hounded me. Then a lone DD joined so this was likely a 3 rated and those two worked me over for over 2 more real hours..
My batteries were low and I went to one knot for the last half hour but it might be they simply ran out of cans to drop but after 5 1/2 hours of depth charging I limped away badly damaged but I made it home with 18,400 tons (I lowered the T2 to 7K tons)

The idea is that this was a realistic patrol for Feb 1944 in that I was hammered did some but little real damage to the allied war effort and survived but barely. I would like to think this is typical but it might just be a fluke.
I am pretty good with 2 attackers as my sonar man can track one and I the other so will stay that one step ahead. But, I do not believe I made one serious mistake and believe I could have easily been sunk,
Will this take the edge of the vet escorts while the larger numbers off set that to make convoy attacks in late war more real?
I can't say but I will say this was at least as much as I could have hoped for and if it pans out will be the best reality I have tasted.
But, it is way too soon.
5 1/2 hours is the longest I have ever survived a depth charging.
All in all the DDs seemed deadly but not so much that I felt helpless (I actually thought they would get me, though)

Wulfmann

[Myxale]

Is there any way i can partake in testing this file of your's. This sounds so cool.
And like the Avon Lady stated once "...we need all the suffering we can get..."
And this sounds like a helluva of suffering! :hmm:

I'd be up for testing it as well...need to do something while I wait for WaW II to start.

Cheers...

[Wulfmann]

PM your emails but it will be a few days as I have to make sure this has no bugs. I did a major re-edit of the RND and a single mistake causes CTD. I must start careers in various periods to find this out as RND edit show when you load a patrol.
Note, this is a GW modded Rnd. You must at least have the ships and stuff from GW to use this RND
I have developed many ways to check the files quickly but that is not proof.
Like I said, this was one patrol and may have been unusual.
However, the fact it seemed to be the direction I was hoping for is at the least, somewhat promising.
If a few more patrols are similar I will be very pleased. If not, it will be a big let down.
Of course the fact I was held under for 51/2 hours real time (not counting the extra hour to wait until there was no further warship sound) makes testing a longer process than when you are killed in 20 minutes!
I noticed in the U-Boat books I have bought that if a boat can get deep it has a decent survival chance. Most boats were damaged on or near the surface. Not that many were not sunk deep as well. But since only one in every seven boats returned in 1944 and most were sunk by aircraft it seems that if we can get deep we should have a better chance to survive than we have been having.
As I think I have been interpreting.

Wulfmann

[r_wagner]

Hey Wulfmann, I have grown tired of the dodgy AI and want to get DC'ed for a change. Do you mind sharing your work? I can then give you some feedback on it if you're interested...

I am currently running GW, NYGM, EUC so if that works I would love to have a go!

[Wulfmann]

PM me an email address I will send you one that is already known tested.

Wulfmann

[gdogghenrikson]

UM........what about improved convoys mod

[gouldjg]

Wulfmann

CB has already dropped you a massive hint to get what you want,

You have two ways of reducing pin points

1. Set min ranges on your passives and actives so DD get blind spots on last approach

or

2. Adjust the turn rates of the DD = DD can no longer turn on a sixpence and subsequently have to drop their loads at random points near the players resulting in a more realsistic supression experiences if that is really what you want. If one class has wide turn rate and another has normal then you get mixtures. Each ship can be seperate.

Be careful though, when playing with this second option, I ended up pinned for 11 game hours and ended up out of commpressed air. Although it would indicate a method to get the ideal and close to history DC experiences, I simply do not want to be pinned under for 11+hours so will leave that for the guys who do.

Balance and much testing needs to be done but there is room for that method to get what you want within reason. It is just how realistic do you really want to go??

I tried an experiment on Gibralta mission and after 7 hours managed to look like I was getting out and free, the DD stopped searching and headed back to their patrol points, it was a shame i was in the way cos they picked me up again and I spent another 4 hours before I got bored and tired from concentrating too hard .