Putin is turning Russia back into USSR

[XabbaRus]

Yes many people in Western Europe don't seem to know much if anything at all the stuff that goes on in the Baltic states towards Russians.

By the ltter of EU rules they should not have been allowed in due to direct discrimination against the Russian population.

Other stuff I could mention is Russians being turfed out of their appartments and given to "native" Estonians/Latvians/Lithuanians.

It goes from the nastiness like that to the preposterous.

where I live there are quite a number of Baltic state people who came over to work now they are in the EU. Some are Russians others are native. The crazy thing is even though the natvie "Balts" (I use this as it is easier then writing the county names all the time) refuse to talk with me in Russian even if it would be easier, just because it is Russian.

Thanks to Type941 bringing this up....

[August]

Originally Posted by Type941

From what I understand that doesn't make it ok for US to ignore its detrimental effect on world environment TODAY, August, TODAY. Gosh we've been over this but the nationalist on the other side of the pond will never change until :|\

The nationalists on the other side of the pond won't change regardless of what we do. On the other hand i'm sure they'd like to see us wreck our economy and standard of living by adopting strict quotas even the signatory countries rarely meet.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

What does pollution have to do with capitalism or communism? :hmm:

I was only discussing capitalism in my post, and I thought I explained the relationship pretty clearly but I'll give it another go:

Pollution is a side effect of many forms of industry, from the coal burned to power the machines in manufacturing plants, to the emissions produced in the transportation of resources to plants and goods to market. The link is between capitalism's extraordinary capability to meet needs and wants (many of these wants being manufactured by the advertising industry that is part and parcel of the system), its efficiency, and the consumption of resources and the pollution produced in the process to meet them.

There is no contradiction in being an environmentally friendly capitalist or communist.

Nor did I say there was. But I was also referring to the system itself and not individuals.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

>Neither does capitalism IMHO, although its had a good run so far<

Sorry, but capitalism is in full swing in nearly every 'western' country on the planet, and it is a complete success. The mark of modernization and success of all developing countries is to adopt a western system of capitalization. It's not a 'political ideology' like communism is. Capitalism is simply free trade that is not interfered with, it was a naturally occuring thing. Each country has their own take on how the government interacts with the economy but in the end the economy controls the country, and the people control the economy.

Capitalism is a complete success, has been instated fully in most parts of the modern world and is basically the only proven workable way to sustain a modern nation. Those who don't accept that get left in the dust. Most countries with capitalism are also democracies but there are exceptions like China.

Well first off, in the grand history of mankind, the history of capitalism is but a dot on the timeline. Within that little dot we've managed to deplete much of the world's non-renewable resources of coal and petroleum and that is leaving its mark on the environment. The extent of that mark is still unknown, while consumption, at least over the short term, will continue to increase. As will the rate of resource depletion and pollution side effects.

There are no shortcomings produced by capitalism, only by the people who control the economy. The people are not forced to any ideology, capitalism means free economy. There is nothing stopping people from inventing new ideas or new ways of reducing environmental impact or whatever. If they DID something like that, they could capitalise on it and expand the economy even further.

This is extremely simplistic and naive. Of course there is nothing stopping people from inventing new ways to reduce environmental impact, and in fact many have been invented already, years and even decades ago. The resistance lies in their adoption by industry, and, to a lesser extent, even consumers. In the first case the resistance is there because existing technologies benefit from things like economies of scale and prior innovation that make them cheaper to use than new technologies that don't have these benefits. For example the automobile, which has been in use for about a century and has gone through constant innovation but remains essentially unchanged - in fact many of todays autos don't get much better milage than the 14 MPG of the original model T. The radically newer designs of electrics and hybrids have been around a while but face resistance from consumers in part from the comparative expense of the newer technology.

In the case of pollution controls they tend to cost money to be implemented and are resisted by industry out of fear that profits will be impacted, and by consumers who fear costs will be passed onto them. Governments are hesitant to force compliance with pollution reducing technology out of legitmate fear that these industries will simply shut down and relocate to places where the pollution is a welcome trade off for the money that will be brought into the region in return. In any case the trade off is the same: pollution in return for higher profits, cost savings, or regional investment.

Capitalism + true democracy is basically the only realistic way to go in the modern world.

Perhaps. It comes at a very high cost over the long-term though, the bill for which we don't know, nor do we know when it will become due.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by scandium

Perhaps. It comes at a very high cost over the long-term though, the bill for which we don't know, nor do we know when it will become due.

Golden words there

There are very few democracies which held out for more than a few decades as of now(and even then, their "trueness" is debatable). The US, far from being the rule, is a very unique exception in that. Capitalism, meanwhile, is in completely uncharted territory today. There is no historical precedent to compare it to; what the marked is capable of today is unprecedented.

There are some things we can say and argue about, but ultimately the perfection and longevity of this system is mostly speculation and ideology. The reality is less than straightforward.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

was it next to a book called mien kampf? germany did some barbaric things as well so you cant shift everything onto the USSR.

I just like to say I have read this book and my view is this, it's a badly written book and full of waffle which I don't recommend anyone to read. Unless you want to get in to the mind of a mad man and no I have not read his second book I decided to pass that one up.

Originally Posted by Kapitan

according to what i believe americans think that money can buy everything history has taught us this.

They bought london bridge from us because they wanted a bit of history

The only realy came into the war (WW1) because they were forced by friends

The came into WW2 because the japs bombed pearl harbour and then hitler declared war.

They tried making a film to prove they found the enigma machine first and fail

They try and write other countrys history books and tell them what happend even before america existed

long list.

I just like to say Kapitan if you intend to declare war on America or the President you may just get arrested for that one so don't bother.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

was it next to a book called mien kampf? germany did some barbaric things as well so you cant shift everything onto the USSR.

No, not at all, actually. And it was a book written in the 1990's, published in Canada with government support. It was nothing like Mein Kampf; rather, it was simply meant to whitewash the Estonian SS and put down the Soviets.

Ironically, the first house my family owned in Canada was bought from a former member of the Estonian SS (which we confirmed when we found some papers left over in the house). Unlike the publishing ones, though, he was clearly a quiet man who regretted what he'd done.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Type941

Meanwhile, Estonia* in another attempt to appologise farshism of 1940s have forbidden all soviet symbols in Estonia. That includes red flags, CCCP tshirts, desmatlement of soviet monuments (one on a mass grave in center of Tallinn was painted over by vandals last night while government does nothing about it and silently agrees)

and even sickle and hammer are now forbidden to own. At the same time a nazi monument is being looked after in a small town in Estonia, which brings Waffen SS legion soldeirs who fought against red army and participated in mass murdering of civilians along with nazis. 1 month ago, one of former members of the legion, whose name shall not be said, was let go by court even though the leading holocoust organization was pressing charges against him. In Estonia he was more or less a hero. The organization says they'll get him anyway. The country's population of about 1.2 milion still has about 300000 people (majority of which are russians, pensioneers, etc) who have a grey passport (Alien) and no citizenship rights for more than 15 years, even though many of these people were born and lived all their life in Estonia. Russia in Estonia often called as Turk in Germany. EU closes its eyes on overwhelming minority human rights violation on its own territory.




Nice, huh?

Tell me more about Democracy in European Union. Please, I beg you.


*Estonia is part of EU, but its actions and opinions expressed may be different to those of other countries in European Union.

Are you working for the FSB or something? You cant be serious that Estonians should keep monuments of their occupier? USSR send third of the Estonian population in to camps and brought Russians to replace them. As you yourself said, the people without passport are Russians, not Estonians. Wouldnt it be fair that Russia would take them back? Calling all Waffen SS soldiers Nazis is a lie. They didnt all participate in war crimes, that is a fact. How many NKVD, partisan or Red Army members has Russia convicted of this types of crimes? Plus, you dont mention that most Estonians were concripts not volunteers. The sickle and hammer are to millions of people the same as the swastika, representing millions of dead family members and relatives. Funny that you dont get all this, you liking to study history. But history books in Russia are different from those in the rest of the world..

[Happy Times]

Disinformation at its best, the priest, blessing the monument for the fallen, seems to be making a sieg heil salute in this caption. Bravo

[CCIP]

And which side are you on?

Newsflash: Waffen SS was acknowledged as part of the Nazi organization at Nuremberg and universally condemned. There is no excuses for Waffen SS. Of course not every SS soldier participated in an atrocity, but they were very explicitly signing up into this work. These were Waffen SS soldiers, no more, no less. They share the responsibility for the "humanitarian work" done by Waffen SS on the Eastern Front.

There were Estonian units in the Soviet army fighting against the Germans on the other hand, and this is a monument to this battle specifically - not to NKVD, not to the Soviet army in their role as occupier. There is a big difference.

Again, I repeat, there is NO excuses for Waffen SS. There is no excuses for honoring an essentially Nazi legacy. I don't care HOW you raise your goddamn hand to honor them, you just don't do that. There is no excuses for dishonoring a legacy of those fighting against the Germans and their allies, period.

Happy Times, don't go overboard, please. There is a difference between recognizing history and defending Nazi organizations. Myself nor Type941, nor most Russians, deny the wrongs done by the illegal Soviet occupation of the Baltic. But this just doesn't measure up with Nazism.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Disinformation at its best, the priest, blessing the monument for the fallen, seems to be making a sieg heil salute in this caption. Bravo

He is doing the cross sign in the air, if somebody didnt get it.

[CCIP]

I know what he's doing.




And if you still didn't clue in, likewise -

The problem is not the fact that they're commemorating resistance to Soviet occupation. The problem is how and through what. They could do it without using Nazi organizations connected to massive atrocities. They could also do it without trying to make present-day Russians somehow feel guilty of it, and without disenfranchising vast populations of Russians on their territory who were born and raised there.

I think a good parallel to this particular gesture would be if Finland raised a monument to their glorious role in assisting the siege of Leningrad.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CCIP

And which side are you on?

Newsflash: Waffen SS was acknowledged as part of the Nazi organization at Nuremberg and universally condemned. There is no excuses for Waffen SS. Of course not every SS soldier participated in an atrocity, but they were very explicitly signing up into this work. These were Waffen SS soldiers, no more, no less. They share the responsibility for the "humanitarian work" done by Waffen SS on the Eastern Front.

There were Estonian units in the Soviet army fighting against the Germans on the other hand, and this is a monument to this battle specifically - not to NKVD, not to the Soviet army in their role as occupier. There is a big difference.

Again, I repeat, there is NO excuses for Waffen SS. There is no excuses for honoring an essentially Nazi legacy. I don't care HOW you raise your goddamn hand to honor them, you just don't do that. There is no excuses for dishonoring a legacy of those fighting against the Germans and their allies, period.

Happy Times, don't go overboard, please. There is a difference between recognizing history and defending Nazi organizations. Myself nor Type941, nor most Russians, deny the wrongs done by the illegal Soviet occupation of the Baltic. But this just doesn't measure up with Nazism.

Im in the side of truth, not some perverted mockery of history. Well United States recognized the special nature of the Baltic SS units, they defended them. Estonians fighting for USSR were volunteers and considered traitors, wich they were. USSRs crimes compare well with those Nazis did. You dismiss valid points i made, about Russias lack of condemnation of USSRs crimes, in one sentence. Convinient. Are you suggesting i shouldnt honor my countries history in WW2? Then we might have a serious disagreement.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

about Russias lack of condemnation of USSRs crimes, in one sentence.

What other condemnation do you need, for crying out loud? Maybe they should apologize for fighting Germany, too?

What do modern Russians have to do with this? Even Mr. Putin was born after WWII. This is history. This has been acknowledged, now let's stop dishonoring it and pestering today's Russians over it.

I don't care about the "special nature". The US can say lots of things; I see 27,000,000 dead Soviet citizens in World War II. And I think they're rolling over in their mass graves from these kinds of gestures. I understand the Estonians had it hard; but that doesn't excuse their contribution to the Nazi war plan. Again, "tragedy of small nations" is my explanation, and I sympathise with this. But one atrocity doesn't automatically cancel out another. You can join the Waffen SS with your "special nature", and you're still in the Waffen SS to me.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CCIP

What other condemnation do you need, for crying out loud? Maybe they should apologize for fighting Germany, too?

What do modern Russians have to do with this? Even Mr. Putin was born after WWII.

I don't care about the "special nature". The US can say lots of things; I see 27,000,000 dead Soviet citizens in World War II. I understand the Estonians had it hard; but that doesn't excuse their contribution to the Nazi war plan. Again, "tragedy of small nations" is my explanation, and I sympathise with this. But one atrocity doesn't automatically cancel out another. You can join the Waffen SS with your "special nature", and you're still in the Waffen SS to me.

The nerve some people have Fack you!