Putin is turning Russia back into USSR - Page 3

Kapitan · 05-19-06, 05:25 AM

Go to google and look up true communism and then compair it to them two countries you will find that they dont match that much.

STEED · 05-19-06, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Go to google and look up true communism and then compair it to them two countries you will find that they dont match that much.

WHY??????????

Kapitan · 05-19-06, 06:31 AM

One of the elements of true communism is equality of all people, do you see that in china or korea?

No you dont therefore them countries cannot be true communist states.

Skybird · 05-19-06, 07:21 AM

For such debate, I always considered it to be a good idea to keep totalitarism and communism two separate things, and to keep capitalism and democracy two separate tings as well. It's sort of antagonistic.

And communism and democracy suffer from the same misperception: that man is reasonable, altruistic, and good. If we really were like that, the world wouldn't be where it currently is - and that is not an encouraging state.

I think both things, democarcy and communism, only works in social communties of that size, and not bigger. Beyond that, both turn into feudal structures again. We see it in Europe, we see it in Russia, in the US, and in China as well. Neither communism nor democracy work for communities of that size. In both cases, self-declared pseudo-elites emerge and ursurp power.

Accoridng to Chaos theories, systems of a given structural complexity level can only grow so far ion that level, if they grow bigger in size, the system goes into a phase of chaotic recostruction- and re-emerges on a higher complexity level again, with a structural order that is completely new. It may hold the solutions to all problems of the lower levels (earlier developement) phases, but it comes at the price of new problems that are not present on lower levels of the hierarchy of previous orders.

However, if the system on a given developement level and of a given comkplexity sturcture grows in size beyond that barrier and does not turn chaotic and then transform into a system of higher complexity, if this system instead only grows and adds more and more single peices to the old structure, it suffers from more and more probpems, and sooner or later dies. There is no such thing as unlimited growth, and each structural level has it'S limits for size. Uncontrolled growth is something that is known in medicine: uncontrolled cellular growth, it is called a tumor, or cancer. Our communties suffer fro this kind of cancer, too, may it be with regard to traffic systems and road networks, may it be with regard to interactive finance structures, may it be with regard to the distribution of powers in representative bodies and offices, may it be with the self-dynamic of our industrial and economical structures.

STEED · 05-19-06, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan

One of the elements of true communism is equality of all people

Not under Uncle Joe.

Kapitan · 05-19-06, 07:34 AM

Whos uncle joe is that the canadian version of uncle sam?

CB.. · 05-19-06, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

No, China does *not* remain a communist state. Their state-run factories are being closed down. Their citizens are now creating self-initiated privately run corporations, self-owned businesses, becoming independent/self-directed entrepeneurs. Which is the power behind their current boom and the sole reason we are projecting their eventual rise in power in the next few decades in the first place.

Edit: Grammar

yes you allready said that....Communists (the clever ones anyway) like money too-- you know big houses etc etc..now they can have both...at one special reduced price limited period only..scary isn't it...

STEED · 05-19-06, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Whos uncle joe

Oberon · 05-19-06, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Whos uncle joe is that the canadian version of uncle sam?

I think STEED is referring to Mr Ioseb Jughashvili

But I agree with Kap, true communism, the total equality of the masses, is not possible in this unideal world. Every attempt has resulted in virtual dictatorship.

STEED · 05-19-06, 09:42 AM

Communism dose not work.

Onkel Neal · 05-19-06, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

Communism dose not work.

Agreed 100%

Communism: "We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us".

TLAM Strike · 05-19-06, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

Communism dose not work.

Oh really...

http://www.section31.com/column.php?id=14
^That article does make one mistake, the Federation does have money (the Federation "Credit") although it appears to be totally worthless and only used in the Federation...

... sorry had to make my mandatory jab at the good old UFP.

CCIP · 05-19-06, 10:55 AM

Actually, I always called my political orientation "I would be communist if I didn't know people better".

Being rather left on the spectrum, I'm honestly not at all opposed to the ideal goals of communism; but there's one problem - it's based on the completely wrong assumption that people can all suddenly become rational and respectful of each other as much as themselves.

In this sense, those who created the US constitution were way ahead of Marx and the crew. They certainly realized the failings of humans, and created a much more reliable and stable system. Neither, of course, is unexploitable.

Communism never existed, by the way. China and the USSR, and all those other states, are/were just examples of how to take an ideology and exploit it to one's own ends. Likewise, the idea of "democracy" has already gone through the wash in Russia and was/is likewise exploited by the government there.

People who haven't been screwed by their government really shouldn't take it for granted. As long as there's people who want to be better than others, communism will never work, and I think that's something that's programmed into human nature (not to say inherent to everyone) and has driven society as much as it has driven natural evolution. Liberalism, in the end, is just far more appealing to most people - at least on a practical, everyday level.

Anyway, I won't take this for an opportunity to preach my dreams of "rational socialism"

Fish · 05-19-06, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Yes boo freedom of thought,limitations on power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, the right to vote for all, a country in which there is financial help for the out of work or poor, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.

I mean who wants that! Pffft!!

What's any of that got to do with liberalism?

All! :|\

Sea Demon · 05-19-06, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Yes boo freedom of thought,limitations on power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, the right to vote for all, a country in which there is financial help for the out of work or poor, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.

I mean who wants that! Pffft!!

What's any of that got to do with liberalism?

All! :|\

Has nothing to do with American Liberalism at all.

American "Liberals" usually spit on those values.

05-19-06, 05:25 AM	#31
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Go to google and look up true communism and then compair it to them two countries you will find that they dont match that much. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

05-19-06, 06:31 AM	#33
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	One of the elements of true communism is equality of all people, do you see that in china or korea? No you dont therefore them countries cannot be true communist states. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

05-19-06, 07:21 AM	#34
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,624 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	For such debate, I always considered it to be a good idea to keep totalitarism and communism two separate things, and to keep capitalism and democracy two separate tings as well. It's sort of antagonistic. And communism and democracy suffer from the same misperception: that man is reasonable, altruistic, and good. If we really were like that, the world wouldn't be where it currently is - and that is not an encouraging state. I think both things, democarcy and communism, only works in social communties of that size, and not bigger. Beyond that, both turn into feudal structures again. We see it in Europe, we see it in Russia, in the US, and in China as well. Neither communism nor democracy work for communities of that size. In both cases, self-declared pseudo-elites emerge and ursurp power. Accoridng to Chaos theories, systems of a given structural complexity level can only grow so far ion that level, if they grow bigger in size, the system goes into a phase of chaotic recostruction- and re-emerges on a higher complexity level again, with a structural order that is completely new. It may hold the solutions to all problems of the lower levels (earlier developement) phases, but it comes at the price of new problems that are not present on lower levels of the hierarchy of previous orders. However, if the system on a given developement level and of a given comkplexity sturcture grows in size beyond that barrier and does not turn chaotic and then transform into a system of higher complexity, if this system instead only grows and adds more and more single peices to the old structure, it suffers from more and more probpems, and sooner or later dies. There is no such thing as unlimited growth, and each structural level has it'S limits for size. Uncontrolled growth is something that is known in medicine: uncontrolled cellular growth, it is called a tumor, or cancer. Our communties suffer fro this kind of cancer, too, may it be with regard to traffic systems and road networks, may it be with regard to interactive finance structures, may it be with regard to the distribution of powers in representative bodies and offices, may it be with the self-dynamic of our industrial and economical structures. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-19-06, 07:34 AM	#36
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Whos uncle joe is that the canadian version of uncle sam? __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

05-19-06, 09:42 AM	#40
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Communism dose not work. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

05-19-06, 10:55 AM	#43
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Actually, I always called my political orientation "I would be communist if I didn't know people better". Being rather left on the spectrum, I'm honestly not at all opposed to the ideal goals of communism; but there's one problem - it's based on the completely wrong assumption that people can all suddenly become rational and respectful of each other as much as themselves. In this sense, those who created the US constitution were way ahead of Marx and the crew. They certainly realized the failings of humans, and created a much more reliable and stable system. Neither, of course, is unexploitable. Communism never existed, by the way. China and the USSR, and all those other states, are/were just examples of how to take an ideology and exploit it to one's own ends. Likewise, the idea of "democracy" has already gone through the wash in Russia and was/is likewise exploited by the government there. People who haven't been screwed by their government really shouldn't take it for granted. As long as there's people who want to be better than others, communism will never work, and I think that's something that's programmed into human nature (not to say inherent to everyone) and has driven society as much as it has driven natural evolution. Liberalism, in the end, is just far more appealing to most people - at least on a practical, everyday level. Anyway, I won't take this for an opportunity to preach my dreams of "rational socialism" __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)