My only complaint about cold waters...

GoldenRivet · 11-02-17, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

Were there any other enemy assets in the mission? Any surface ships? What about any helo's or aircraft dropping sonobouys in your area? Are you positive the torp was a SS-N-16 from the Victor and not a aerial dropped weapon from a helo or May/Bear ASW aircraft?

one on one duel single mission - me vs him - no planes, no choppers etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

If you were heading right at him at slow speed and deep, and at 15,000+ yds, I don't understand how he heard you unless you did something to get his attention.

me either. but i am often finding myself in this predicament with the enemy sub or surface ships going straight to pinging like all get out and inevitably, im found. range to target, aspect ratio etc seem to make no difference.

in this case, the mission started. parameters were close to 20Kyds immediately on mission start i ordered ultra quiet, ordered 2 knots and started listening. after a few minutes made contact and identified target. decided i would be cute and close the range and get a good shot at him out of the baffles. went deep. then ping. event camera showed him firing the SS-N-16 so i know it was him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

Are you using the realism mod? Any mods? What version of the game?

bare naked, 100% vanilla, bone stock updated to the latest version via steam

EDIT: i guess the minute you make sonar contact and ID them and have a solution over any decent percentage the trick is to just go guns blazing. if active (or even passive) sonar is as dead on accurate in real life as it is in cold waters, i would go so far as to say the submarine as a weapon - is entirely obsolete.

CaptainCruise · 11-02-17, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

one on one duel single mission - me vs him - no planes, no choppers etc

**OK, I've played this one a few times.

me either. but i am often finding myself in this predicament with the enemy sub or surface ships going straight to pinging like all get out and inevitably, im found. range to target, aspect ratio etc seem to make no difference.

**The enemy subs do seem to be more aggressive with active sonar in this game. Maybe they're modeled that way considering Russian sonar was not as good as ours, so they try to even the odds a bit by going active more often. Just a guess. 15,000+yds seems like a bit of a stretch for active range tho.

in this case, the mission started. parameters were close to 20Kyds immediately on mission start i ordered ultra quiet, ordered 2 knots and started listening. after a few minutes made contact and identified target. decided i would be cute and close the range and get a good shot at him out of the baffles. went deep. then ping. event camera showed him firing the SS-N-16 so i know it was him.

**Were you cavitating when the mission started? Those few seconds of cavitation are enough to give him a quick sonar contact at the start, and even tho you probably vanished from his sonar when you went quiet, he had a bearing on you. Accurate range, dunno how he did that so fast unless he got a workable range from a active sonar ping. Maybe from there he just got lucky.

bare naked, 100% vanilla, bone stock updated to the latest version via steam

**Then I don't think you wanna try the realism mod.

It gets a lot tougher than stock.

EDIT: i guess the minute you make sonar contact and ID them and have a solution over any decent percentage the trick is to just go guns blazing. if active (or even passive) sonar is as dead on accurate in real life as it is in cold waters, i would go so far as to say the submarine as a weapon - is entirely obsolete.

**I had a mission that worked out for me almost the same as what you had here. Whiskey sub close in and I got nothing on sonar no matter what I do. I finally go active and after a few pings I still got nothing, but he got all he needed cause then I get a trop launch video from him. Now I got a close in torp and my sonar never hears it. I don't find it until its almost in my pocket. The only thing you can do in this situation is fire a torp down his bearing, set it for his depth and to go active, snake pattern, and let it go. Steer it if you have the time, if not cut the wires and run. I try to keep the wires as long as I can, even if I let the torp get a bit too clos to be. I just start evading and cross my fingers.

The sub is far from obsolete, believe it. You'll get better at all this in time. Just keep playing, keep searching the forums for info on the game, talk to people who have played a lot. Also, check out YouTube. There are several vids about Cold Waters that cover a lot of info. Tutorials, torp evasion, tracking targets, sonar, etc. Everything you need to know. Just have faith.

"CC"

**I messed up the quote box in the beginning of this post, sorry. Looks confusing.

GoldenRivet · 11-03-17, 12:17 AM

The game is female thats for sure

hot one minute, cold the next

Take the Bastion Gambit mission for example:

i played it a few times today. in one case, i was pinged from afar by a surface ship which made a b-line for me, as did his buddy. same scenario, 50 ft from the floor, 2 knots, low aspect ratio and discovered as if by magic. i fired at them both, but shortly after that i had a sub fire a spread of 4 at me, i had a plane drop an air dropped torpedo on me. it very soon felt like the whole red fleet was onto me. they made short work of me.

in the next case, they couldnt find their butts with both hands, i stalked up right nearly under the escorts into the boomer's baffles, gave him two up the rear end. spent the other two tubes on the surface escorts. evaded a single shot from a foxtrot sub and let him have it once i reloaded. it went on and on, six enemy ships sent to the bottom and only a single shot fired by the lot of them.

in the iron coffins mission(?), i spent quite a while... an hour perhaps IRL getting into the baffles of one of the subs, closed to within maybe 500 - 600 yds and let him have it, i turned straight for his companion the second the shots left the tubes. and i went deep as i could. the second sub could never find me and was pinging over and over again. he went right over top of me about 800 foot above. i mad a big ascending u-turn and gave him one right up the prop hub.

in a replay of that same mission, tried it again, this time the first sub found me within 10 seconds of the game start using active sonar straight away. fired four at me. in my efforts to evade i was obviously detected by the other sub and before i knew it i was jinking left right up and down to escape 8 torpedoes all over the place. i was still victorious however because one of the subs had a circle runner and was taken out by his own torpedo. the second sub i played chicken with leading all 8 torpedoes back to him as he was closest. most of the torpedoes exploded on the way, but a couple of them left me and homed in on him. so i won that one without firing a shot.

Aktungbby · 11-03-17, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

The game is female thats for sure

hot one minute, cold the next... so i won that one without firing a shot.

That's how I win all my female games too!

-Pv- · 11-03-17, 08:41 PM

As has been noted in other threads, the "quiet game" in this sim is not what many of us (including old timers) expect. More often than not, going hot immediately and swarming the enemy with a mix of torp, decoy and sub screws while maneuvering like a maniac seems the only way to win many encounters. On the other side of the coin, until the next content patch, the present game is me against all enemy. The prevailing tactic in this type of match up is to shoot first at maximum range and ask questions later. The typical WWII tactic (or modern land-based squad) of getting close enough to see the whites of their eyes is not what 20-21st century combat is about. Modern submarines are the equivalent to FPS long range snipers. Similar to a famous quote from Star Trek, it's typical in a game like this to get trapped into thinking two dimensionally and forgetting a good attack/defense plan has more than two or three simple tricks. Often in this game, you have to work three, four, five tactics against each other at the same time while balancing on a pin head.

While thinking on this, a mission type currently missing is tracking targets undetected for a length of time or crossing a line. This might encourage developers and modders to test the sim to make sure theses types of encounters are possible.

I'm hoping as neutral ships are introduced, the devs carefully test the stealth balancing. Our attack weapons do not discriminate very well at long range while the skipper is running for his life against aircraft and rocket launched counter attacks.

-Pv-

GoldenRivet · 11-06-17, 01:19 AM

PV is on track with my thinking.

throughout many facets of the cold war from the 60s to the late 80s and probably still today, you hear about the American SSN patrolling off some Soviet naval base tasked with picking up a boomer headed out to sea and following him around in case the order ever came to take them out.

yes, im sure that was boring

but if they were to just go active sonar all the time and instantly find that patrolling SSN, then how would he ever sneak in behind the boomer and follow him?

you with me?

we hear about the cat and mouse games that these attack submarines play with one another, following them around or sneaking into their baffles without their knowing... in cold waters its not impossible, ive done it several times. But its nearly impossible because when the mission starts and you get a minute or two in you hear that long lonesome ping. then maybe another and then launch transient and its over, the cat and mouse game is over and you're only 90 seconds into the mission start and now everyone is running around flank speed like call of duty multiplayer style run and gun.

Delgard · 11-06-17, 01:48 AM

Peacetime and wartime are two different situations.

Since the Cold War, though, diesel-electric has become vogue. Many nations don't travel the many miles that the U.S. does so shorter range diesel- electric works fine. They are inherently quieter, too.

GeneralGamer · 11-07-17, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

The game is female thats for sure

You mean naturally bi-polar?

11-03-17, 12:17 AM	#3
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	The game is female thats for sure hot one minute, cold the next Take the Bastion Gambit mission for example: i played it a few times today. in one case, i was pinged from afar by a surface ship which made a b-line for me, as did his buddy. same scenario, 50 ft from the floor, 2 knots, low aspect ratio and discovered as if by magic. i fired at them both, but shortly after that i had a sub fire a spread of 4 at me, i had a plane drop an air dropped torpedo on me. it very soon felt like the whole red fleet was onto me. they made short work of me. in the next case, they couldnt find their butts with both hands, i stalked up right nearly under the escorts into the boomer's baffles, gave him two up the rear end. spent the other two tubes on the surface escorts. evaded a single shot from a foxtrot sub and let him have it once i reloaded. it went on and on, six enemy ships sent to the bottom and only a single shot fired by the lot of them. in the iron coffins mission(?), i spent quite a while... an hour perhaps IRL getting into the baffles of one of the subs, closed to within maybe 500 - 600 yds and let him have it, i turned straight for his companion the second the shots left the tubes. and i went deep as i could. the second sub could never find me and was pinging over and over again. he went right over top of me about 800 foot above. i mad a big ascending u-turn and gave him one right up the prop hub. in a replay of that same mission, tried it again, this time the first sub found me within 10 seconds of the game start using active sonar straight away. fired four at me. in my efforts to evade i was obviously detected by the other sub and before i knew it i was jinking left right up and down to escape 8 torpedoes all over the place. i was still victorious however because one of the subs had a circle runner and was taken out by his own torpedo. the second sub i played chicken with leading all 8 torpedoes back to him as he was closest. most of the torpedoes exploded on the way, but a couple of them left me and homed in on him. so i won that one without firing a shot. __________________

11-03-17, 08:41 PM	#5
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	As has been noted in other threads, the "quiet game" in this sim is not what many of us (including old timers) expect. More often than not, going hot immediately and swarming the enemy with a mix of torp, decoy and sub screws while maneuvering like a maniac seems the only way to win many encounters. On the other side of the coin, until the next content patch, the present game is me against all enemy. The prevailing tactic in this type of match up is to shoot first at maximum range and ask questions later. The typical WWII tactic (or modern land-based squad) of getting close enough to see the whites of their eyes is not what 20-21st century combat is about. Modern submarines are the equivalent to FPS long range snipers. Similar to a famous quote from Star Trek, it's typical in a game like this to get trapped into thinking two dimensionally and forgetting a good attack/defense plan has more than two or three simple tricks. Often in this game, you have to work three, four, five tactics against each other at the same time while balancing on a pin head. While thinking on this, a mission type currently missing is tracking targets undetected for a length of time or crossing a line. This might encourage developers and modders to test the sim to make sure theses types of encounters are possible. I'm hoping as neutral ships are introduced, the devs carefully test the stealth balancing. Our attack weapons do not discriminate very well at long range while the skipper is running for his life against aircraft and rocket launched counter attacks. -Pv- Last edited by -Pv-; 11-04-17 at 12:35 PM.

11-06-17, 01:19 AM	#6
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	PV is on track with my thinking. throughout many facets of the cold war from the 60s to the late 80s and probably still today, you hear about the American SSN patrolling off some Soviet naval base tasked with picking up a boomer headed out to sea and following him around in case the order ever came to take them out. yes, im sure that was boring but if they were to just go active sonar all the time and instantly find that patrolling SSN, then how would he ever sneak in behind the boomer and follow him? you with me? we hear about the cat and mouse games that these attack submarines play with one another, following them around or sneaking into their baffles without their knowing... in cold waters its not impossible, ive done it several times. But its nearly impossible because when the mission starts and you get a minute or two in you hear that long lonesome ping. then maybe another and then launch transient and its over, the cat and mouse game is over and you're only 90 seconds into the mission start and now everyone is running around flank speed like call of duty multiplayer style run and gun. __________________

11-06-17, 01:48 AM	#7
Delgard Captain Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: AZ & DC Posts: 487 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	Peacetime and wartime are two different situations. Since the Cold War, though, diesel-electric has become vogue. Many nations don't travel the many miles that the U.S. does so shorter range diesel- electric works fine. They are inherently quieter, too.