1968 Sub vs Sub tips?

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

Thanks for the reply, and a great, in depth reply is never a ramble.

My concern was pretty much what can we do about the Mk16, the WW2 era "dumb" torp that we have along with the Mk37 in the 1968 gameplay. I've used the Mk37 quite a bit now and pretty much have an idea what I need to do to make it work. Basically shooting at anything that can move over 22-24kts is a waste unless you're right on top of them and get your shot in quick and dirty, like if the target is facing you and would have to waste time and speed by turning away and running. Or as you mentioned by working up into their baffles at close range and firing from there. What I was wondering is was there ever anything done to make the Mk16 a more effective ASW/ASuW weapon, because as it is now without wire guidance or any control at all it is, as you had also mentioned....basically useless. The only way we can use it in game is play it like it was Silent Hunter. Forget subs completely unless they are on the surface. Without depth control it'll never connect. The only thing we can do is line it up from the periscope or on the surface and from maybe 1,000/1,500 yds do a straight in salvo shot. That may give you one, maybe two hits at most. If the torp is that useless in gameplay why did the game designers even bother to model it and put it in the game. I would probably guess because that's what the Navy had at that era in time, so we got it. OK, that's fine......only thing, it don't work!!!!

Forgive my rant. It's 0530 in the morning here and I still haven't slept, so Im gettin' a bit cranky. lol Thanks brothers.....

"CC"

Well I think from a realism standpoint the Mk 16 isn't all that different from the Mk 37 in terms of being a compromised / handicapped weapon. Much like the MK 37, in order to have any success with the Mk 16 you're required to do a very careful and precise attack. Both are low % / low PK weapons that make the captain jump through hoops in order to use effectively.

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

That sounds like an interesting idea. How about trying it with the Mk16 we already have in the game? It's useless anyway, maybe giving it a passive/active seeker that sniffs for a target, then goes active if it finds a target it can't maintain passively? Just a thought. I'm so dang frustrated with the Mk16 taking up space on my sub I could be using for salami and pickles.

"CC"

Well, there would be more than a few problems with trying to use the Mk 16 as an ASW weapon. Homing or not, the thing really wasn't designed to operate below 200 feet and AFAIK as of right now there isn't any way to portray this in game now (torpedoes don't have depth limitations).

What I have done to the Mk 16 though (will be in the next release of OAS) is add circle pattern running. This can work out to be a very effective "one-two" punch with the Mk 37. If you have a target (say a Riga) that you put a Mk 37 onto, in order to make him evade, other than maybe trying to set up a low % leading shot with another Mk 37, he'd pretty much be in the clear once the first fish runs out of power or he gets outside of its seeker range. Now in many cases this would put you in position to try a spread of Mk 16s at a nice, non-maneuvering target, but in many cases you're left with a horrible oblique angle-on-bow where you're only shooting at a small slice of the ship, which again greatly decreases your likelihood of scoring a hit. With a circle-runner, as long as the target isn't too far away (to the point that he can get out of range before the fish overtakes him and starts running its circle) you have a pretty good chance of being able to plant what amounts to a moving minefield ahead of him. Now obviously all this goes out the window if he starts maneuvering, but if that happens then there's a good chance the Mk 37 is going to get him when he starts making turns.

I'm not sure how many total / which mods of Mk 16 had the circle-running feature but at least two post-war straight/pattern running torpedoes were canceled at least partially in favor of just adding that feature to the Mk 16. As best as I can tell (aside from maybe a few test mules) circle was the only pattern on the Mk 16.

[CaptainCruise]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

What I have done to the Mk 16 though (will be in the next release of OAS) is add circle pattern running. This can work out to be a very effective "one-two" punch with the Mk 37. If you have a target (say a Riga) that you put a Mk 37 onto, in order to make him evade, other than maybe trying to set up a low % leading shot with another Mk 37, he'd pretty much be in the clear once the first fish runs out of power or he gets outside of its seeker range. Now in many cases this would put you in position to try a spread of Mk 16s at a nice, non-maneuvering target, but in many cases you're left with a horrible oblique angle-on-bow where you're only shooting at a small slice of the ship, which again greatly decreases your likelihood of scoring a hit. With a circle-runner, as long as the target isn't too far away (to the point that he can get out of range before the fish overtakes him and starts running its circle) you have a pretty good chance of being able to plant what amounts to a moving minefield ahead of him. Now obviously all this goes out the window if he starts maneuvering, but if that happens then there's a good chance the Mk 37 is going to get him when he starts making turns.

That sounds like a pretty good fix. At least it gives us something workable where we at least have a chance, granted, probably a low % chance but still a chance of getting a hit if you be patient and plan your attack well if it's a surface ship target. How would the torp find a sub at different depths, or trying to evade and changing depth? What kind of vertical seeker range would the Mk16 have, if any? Maybe I read this too quick and missed something.
The only other thing I was thinking of is the Mk48 came online sometime in the very late 60's or the early 70's I believe. Does the game model that and will the '68 campaign, if you play it long enough and enough game time goes by, will the game offer us the Mk48 as a stores option to outfit your ship at the historically accurate time in history? If it did I would assume it would be the first version of the 48 that we developed, not the ADCAP. If the game doesn't do this can we do it as a mod? At least this way we have something to look forward to if you stick with the '68 campaign long enough.
I dunno.....I really like the '68 campaign and the early versions of the ship and sub platforms we used. Once in awhile playing something a bit more challenging than just jumping behind the wheel of a Seawolf or Virginia class is pretty cool. I like the challenge of using a Permit, Skipjack or even a November now and then. What can I say....sometimes you just wanna drive a Pinto instead of a Porsche.

"CC"

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

Maybe I read this too quick and missed something.

Yeah kind of. The Mk 16 was never considered an ASW weapon and wasn't designed with that in mind. As I mentioned earlier, it was limited to a depth of 200 ft and had no seeker of any kind, unless you want to count the magnetic influence exploder(which I think was back by the time the war ended, in a much improved, non-Mk 14 debacle form).

As far as I'm able to tell the depth control consisted merely of a pre-set which was intended to run the torpedo under the keel of its intended target, so pretty much the exact same as the pre-WW2 Mk 14.

As for the Mk 48, no its not included in the 1968 campaign unless by mod. You are correct that the Mk 48 development dates back to the 1950s and some of the test fish were probably shot as early as 1968 but it wasn't really until the 72 that they started deploying them to the fleet, and even then it wasn't until about 76-78 where they became the mainline weapon as the Mk 37s began to be mostly retired.

The Mk 48 development is actually quite interesting because it was initially conceived as basically a really fast Mk 37 (would have actually had a lighter warhead than the Mk 37 but used a more potent explosive) and overtime was changed to become the new general purpose ASW/ASUW weapon of choice as the old straight runners were obsolete and aging out of service.

[CaptainCruise]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

Yeah kind of. The Mk 16 was never considered an ASW weapon and wasn't designed with that in mind. As I mentioned earlier, it was limited to a depth of 200 ft and had no seeker of any kind, unless you want to count the magnetic influence exploder(which I think was back by the time the war ended, in a much improved, non-Mk 14 debacle form).

As far as I'm able to tell the depth control consisted merely of a pre-set which was intended to run the torpedo under the keel of its intended target, so pretty much the exact same as the pre-WW2 Mk 14.

As for the Mk 48, no its not included in the 1968 campaign unless by mod. You are correct that the Mk 48 development dates back to the 1950s and some of the test fish were probably shot as early as 1968 but it wasn't really until the 72 that they started deploying them to the fleet, and even then it wasn't until about 76-78 where they became the mainline weapon as the Mk 37s began to be mostly retired.

The Mk 48 development is actually quite interesting because it was initially conceived as basically a really fast Mk 37 (would have actually had a lighter warhead than the Mk 37 but used a more potent explosive) and overtime was changed to become the new general purpose ASW/ASUW weapon of choice as the old straight runners were obsolete and aging out of service.

OK. It sounds like as far as making any big time mods to Mk16 and the '68 campaign, we're more or less out of luck except for your seeker head mod. Unless there was a way to straight up just add the earliest version of the Mk48 to the campaign and have it show up at a certain date, I don't think I have anything else to add, except maybe making the Mk37 a wee bit faster.....say 30 kts tops. Unfortunately it probably isn't very historically accurate. I dunno, this is going way above my pay grade now, I think I'll shut up and let those of you smarter than me figure this one out.

"CC"

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

OK. It sounds like as far as making any big time mods to Mk16 and the '68 campaign, we're more or less out of luck except for your seeker head mod. Unless there was a way to straight up just add the earliest version of the Mk48 to the campaign and have it show up at a certain date, I don't think I have anything else to add, except maybe making the Mk37 a wee bit faster.....say 30 kts tops. Unfortunately it probably isn't very historically accurate. I dunno, this is going way above my pay grade now, I think I'll shut up and let those of you smarter than me figure this one out.

"CC"

Not sure it would be practical to have it "show up at a certain date" as even a war lasting a few months is probably optimistic (high chance things would escalate out of control before then, or be cooled down before they got the chance to).

As for MK 37 improvements, there is actually quite a bit of truth to that. By 1968 the Mk 37C program was running at ?Nothrop/Honeywell? This basically started with a bunch of company engineers spit-balling (they had a good idea that the MK 37 didn't cut it anymore and the USN was trying to replace it) about ways to improve the Mk 37. What they came up with (aside from some solid-state guidance improvements) was to take the otto-powered propulsion from the Mk 46 light-weight torpedo and use that to replace the MK 37's electric motor+battery. What they arrived at gave roughly 2x the range and a top speed of 36 knots (out past 20,000 yards). The trouble is the test program on the 37C started in 1968 but went on into the 70s and finished up around the same time the Mk 48 entered service.

Its quite likely that the Mk 37C wasn't seriously pursued for fear that it could end up cannibalizing the Mk 48 program due to its cheaper cost and retrofit nature (the 37C was intended to be deployed in kit-form, so Navy personnel would use the kits to upgrade existing Mk 37s at base or even on tenders vs. sending the weapons back to the manufacturer). At the time (late 1960s) the defense budget was under-seige due to the massive expenses from the Vietnam war, had the 37C development been accelerated the Navy may have found themselves saddled with a "good enough in 1968" weapon vs the amazing improvements / capabilities brought by the Mk 48. Eventually the Mk 37C was developed as the NT-37 which was sold to a number of foreign allies as well as the USN.

The Mk 37C is featured in the Omitted American Submarines mod as available to most boats in the 1968 campaign.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

Not sure it would be practical to have it "show up at a certain date" as even a war lasting a few months is probably optimistic (high chance things would escalate out of control before then, or be cooled down before they got the chance to).

As for MK 37 improvements, there is actually quite a bit of truth to that. By 1968 the Mk 37C program was running at ?Nothrop/Honeywell? This basically started with a bunch of company engineers spit-balling (they had a good idea that the MK 37 didn't cut it anymore and the USN was trying to replace it) about ways to improve the Mk 37. What they came up with (aside from some solid-state guidance improvements) was to take the otto-powered propulsion from the Mk 46 light-weight torpedo and use that to replace the MK 37's electric motor+battery. What they arrived at gave roughly 2x the range and a top speed of 36 knots (out past 20,000 yards). The trouble is the test program on the 37C started in 1968 but went on into the 70s and finished up around the same time the Mk 48 entered service.

Its quite likely that the Mk 37C wasn't seriously pursued for fear that it could end up cannibalizing the Mk 48 program due to its cheaper cost and retrofit nature (the 37C was intended to be deployed in kit-form, so Navy personnel would use the kits to upgrade existing Mk 37s at base or even on tenders vs. sending the weapons back to the manufacturer). At the time (late 1960s) the defense budget was under-seige due to the massive expenses from the Vietnam war, had the 37C development been accelerated the Navy may have found themselves saddled with a "good enough in 1968" weapon vs the amazing improvements / capabilities brought by the Mk 48. Eventually the Mk 37C was developed as the NT-37 which was sold to a number of foreign allies as well as the USN.

The Mk 37C is featured in the Omitted American Submarines mod as available to most boats in the 1968 campaign.

All that said, it seems like the kit-bashed Mk 45 that Killerfish made is closer in terms of plausibility than anything else suggested so far. They had the same body diameter as the 37 and the 45 already had wire guidance. Now whether that seeker would function at all at the higher speed is beyond me...

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by Capt Jack Harkness

All that said, it seems like the kit-bashed Mk 45 that Killerfish made is closer in terms of plausibility than anything else suggested so far. They had the same body diameter as the 37 and the 45 already had wire guidance. Now whether that seeker would function at all at the higher speed is beyond me...

It depends on how you look at it. One of the reasons the Mk 45 was created in the first place is because at the time the US Navy didn't have a seeker / couldn't make a homing torpedo which would work at that speed. While the later mods of the Mk 37 (2 and 3) did receive upgraded transducers, their speeds were unchanged so its hard to say whether this would have been addressed by that upgrade.

That said, the Mk 46 was in service by that time, and it had a seeker that would function at or beyond that speed so its not like it would have been impossible to achieve such a thing at that time. As far as I know though there was no consideration given by the Navy for a conventional Mk 45, the later "Freedom torpedo" program apparently used a type of wake-homing guidance and from what I can piece together wasn't intended for ASW use.

[Barleyman]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

What I have done to the Mk 16 though (will be in the next release of OAS) is add circle pattern running. This can work out to be a very effective "one-two" punch with the Mk 37. If you have a target (say a Riga) that you put a Mk 37 onto, in order to make him evade, other than maybe trying to set up a low % leading shot with another Mk 37, he'd pretty much be in the clear once the first fish runs out of power or he gets outside of its seeker range. Now in many cases this would put you in position to try a spread of Mk 16s at a nice, non-maneuvering target, but in many cases you're left with a horrible oblique angle-on-bow where you're only shooting at a small slice of the ship, which again greatly decreases your likelihood of scoring a hit. With a circle-runner, as long as the target isn't too far away (to the point that he can get out of range before the fish overtakes him and starts running its circle) you have a pretty good chance of being able to plant what amounts to a moving minefield ahead of him. Now obviously all this goes out the window if he starts maneuvering, but if that happens then there's a good chance the Mk 37 is going to get him when he starts making turns.

Any chance of getting this circle running thing as a separate mod? It seems that having small mods is difficult since everyone shares the same datafiles in the override folder, so..