Destroyers Discussion what were you guys on?

[Der Teddy Bar]

I recently had a look at the end products for the thread "Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)" http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370

I am sadly amused to see the additions to the Sim.cfg files in the GW & CB versions. They show a total lack of proper testing and understanding of moding.

Now before anyone gets too bent out of shape about this lets just look at this sensibly.

A CFG file is a file that allows easy changing of variables. That’s it, end of story. It is not code, it is not 'run' by the program, it is simply read from and the relevant values taken and used by the program.

The use is very precise, that is, there is no wishy washy use it if it sounds like... The program says "if you find A use the value listed there, if you do not find A then use this", that’s it. There is no "oh OK, there’s no A, but I found a BA (or a AC etc) so I will use that one instead"

The idea that just because you take add additional 'data' under the group heading it will get used is just silly.

What I am referring too are these additions...
Grey Wolves
Already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

And in CB's one...
range factor=1 ;[>=0]
fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
light factor=0 ;[>=0]
enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
aspect=0 ;[>=0]
sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

Now in the situation of GW they have kept all the original Hydrophone entries with some small alterations, so in essence all they have done is add some useless values.

Now CB has really hacked it up. He has removed the original entires of Detection time, Sensitivity & Height factor. Then he has added a lot of useless values.

Unlike the GW version which keeps the formula intact, CB has removed 3 values Detection time, Sensitivity & Height factor from the formula.


I do not have the Escorts AI code, so I will use the SHIII formula Noise Factor (a U-boat sensor formulas) to show you what this means.

P noise = Noise Factor * (RPM current / RPM prag - 1)

If P noise <= 0 then object undetectable


Let’s use the value of 1 for the noise factor, RPM as 116 (or 0.40 of maximum of 290 revs) & of course RPM prag is 0.40.

P noise = 1 * (116/0.40 – 1) so in this case P noise=1.9


Yes CB did leave the ‘Noise Factor’ value in, but as this is an exercise to show the effects of his changes along with this is not the correct formula, I will substitute a 0 to represented the effects that his many omissions will have generated for the real unknown formula.

P noise = 0 * (116/0.40 – 1) so in this case P noise=0

So basically the formula has stopped working.


While this post is critical of the work and by default the authors, it is not meant to be anything more than looking at the facts in a hope to fix the escort detection for real this time and to highlight the issue of improper procedure & testing in the hopes that next time there will not again be thousands of hours wasted.


Cheers,

Teddy Bär

[Scorpius]

Got milk?

[Ducimus]

I thought my testing of wave/noise factors was fairly well done.

I cant help but feel someone just took a leak in my cereal bowl.

edit:
Ohh new forum avatar, must be neals way of saying i post too much.

The question that needs to be asked is this - did you even try the files or did you just open your mouth before putting your brain into gear?

And an answer like - "I dont need to because i'm so good I can just tell and therefor totaly disregarding everybodys input on the subject" dont count.

I would suggest that before 1 makes an ass of 1's self that they at least TRY the supposed tweak, THEN give some postive feedback/fix's instead of being a jerk.

Ohh and before you say it, I have no vested interest in this DD fix 1 way or the other, I'm just appauled at your general attitude to several modding ppl/groups thats at least TRY and work as a community for the greater good.

For some1 who's suppose to know better, this has really shown your colours.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

The question that needs to be asked is this - did you even try the files or did you just open your mouth before putting your brain into gear?

And an answer like - "I dont need to because i'm so good I can just tell and therefor totaly disregarding everybodys input on the subject" dont count.

I would suggest that before 1 makes an ass of 1's self that they at least TRY the supposed tweak, THEN give some postive feedback/fix's instead of being a jerk.

Ohh and before you say it, I have no vested interest in this DD fix 1 way or the other, I'm just appauled at your general attitude to several modding ppl/groups thats at least TRY and work as a community for the greater good.

For some1 who's suppose to know better, this has really shown your colours.

Gibs,
Side step tha actual facts and stay true to the cause :rotfl:

You are a classic

Cheers.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I thought my testing of wave/noise factors was fairly well done.

I cant help but feel someone just took a leak in my cereal bowl.

edit:
Ohh new forum avatar, must be neals way of saying i post too much.

My post has no malice in it and is simply stating facts about the changes.

So I should have kept my mouth closed and let something that is incorrect go by because if I am not for you then I 'have' to be against you?

OK, the published solutions are great and , threee cheers, Hip Hip Hoorah, Hip Hip Hoorah, Hip Hip Hoorah!

Cheers

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Got milk?

Denial is a beautiful thing...

[Ducimus]

It's not what you said, it was how you said it.

You could have taken a tone of,

"Guys, i think you got some stuff wrong, here's why"

Instead of a tone that sounds along the lines of:

"Are you guys on crack?! WTF are you thinking?! Why did i waste my time reading that thread! My way is the right way you idiots! You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground!"

While these arent your words, its how i personnally interpreted it. I intitally typed up a kneejerk response which i toned down because i didnt want to add to any friction that may generate in this thread.

[HEMISENT]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I cant help but feel someone just took a leak in my cereal bowl.

I thought my cornflakes were extra soggy too.

As Daniel Boone used to say "Some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you"

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Denial is a beautiful thing...

I actually have no idea to whatever you refer to. I was just curious about this thread and that is the first thing that entered my mind. I have no idea why i posted that. I just did. :rotfl:

[Reece]

I just gotta post!
I love your scarcasm Teddy Bar "OK, the published solutions are great and , threee cheers, Hip Hip Hoorah, Hip Hip Hoorah, Hip Hip Hoorah!" :rotfl:
Scorpius - "Got milk" what can I say ..... :rotfl: Lets hope that's why the cornflakes are soggy! :rotfl:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

I actually have no idea to whatever you refer to. I was just curious about this thread and that is the first thing that entered my mind. I have no idea why i posted that. I just did. :rotfl:

No probs it just saw it in there will all the other posts which have nothing to do with the the issue at hand, that a lot of work on the AI_Sensor.dat is basically null & void.

NYGM can add sensors to the AI_Sensor.dat and had hoped to bring the community in on making a better escort sensor pack but everyone is more interested in 'having a go' so there goes that great idea....

[lurker_hlb3]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

I recently had a look at the end products for the thread "Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)" http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370

I am sadly amused to see the additions to the Sim.cfg files in the GW & CB versions. They show a total lack of proper testing and understanding of moding.

Now before anyone gets too bent out of shape about this lets just look at this sensibly.

A CFG file is a file that allows easy changing of variables. That’s it, end of story. It is not code, it is not 'run' by the program, it is simply read from and the relevant values taken and used by the program.

The use is very precise, that is, there is no wishy washy use it if it sounds like... The program says "if you find A use the value listed there, if you do not find A then use this", that’s it. There is no "oh OK, there’s no A, but I found a BA (or a AC etc) so I will use that one instead"

The idea that just because you take add additional 'data' under the group heading it will get used is just silly.

What I am referring too are these additions...
Grey Wolves
Already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

And in CB's one...
range factor=1 ;[>=0]
fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
light factor=0 ;[>=0]
enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
aspect=0 ;[>=0]
sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

Now in the situation of GW they have kept all the original Hydrophone entries with some small alterations, so in essence all they have done is add some useless values.

Now CB has really hacked it up. He has removed the original entires of Detection time, Sensitivity & Height factor. Then he has added a lot of useless values.

Unlike the GW version which keeps the formula intact, CB has removed 3 values Detection time, Sensitivity & Height factor from the formula.


I do not have the Escorts AI code, so I will use the SHIII formula Noise Factor (a U-boat sensor formulas) to show you what this means.

P noise = Noise Factor * (RPM current / RPM prag - 1)

If P noise <= 0 then object undetectable


Let’s use the value of 1 for the noise factor, RPM as 116 (or 0.40 of maximum of 290 revs) & of course RPM prag is 0.40.

P noise = 1 * (116/0.40 – 1) so in this case P noise=1.9


Yes CB did leave the ‘Noise Factor’ value in, but as this is an exercise to show the effects of his changes along with this is not the correct formula, I will substitute a 0 to represented the effects that his many omissions will have generated for the real unknown formula.

P noise = 0 * (116/0.40 – 1) so in this case P noise=0

So basically the formula has stopped working.


While this post is critical of the work and by default the authors, it is not meant to be anything more than looking at the facts in a hope to fix the escort detection for real this time and to highlight the issue of improper procedure & testing in the hopes that next time there will not again be thousands of hours wasted.


Cheers,

Teddy Bär

My question to you is do you have a "better" solution ???

[Der Teddy Bar]

lurker_hlb3,
Yes and no.

We are slowly working out a close approximation of the formula. I have had no success in getting it off the Devs, different guys and some are not on SHIV so they are not there to get asked for it.

FYI the AI & the U-boat sensors were done by different guys which is in my opinion very obvious.

NYGM can add sensors to the AI_sensors.DAT and we can add NODES to the escort ships.


Cheers.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by lurker_hlb3

My question to you is do you have a "better" solution ???

Thats what i was wondering, i just didnt ask because i didnt want to be a smart ass.

In that thread i focused primarly on the AI's ablility to HEAR me. My thoughts have always been, the problem isnt pin point drops, the problem is getting the AI to not be so damn passive in behavior. Most of the AI is very passive, or in other words dumb. (exception being crew rating 4). I thought if i could increase their chance to be aware of my presence they would respond appropriately. And its a feasible thought, as the stock noise/wave factors - they are relatively deaf. Think about it, how often have you been detected by how much noise your making unless you deliberatly shove your boat into flank speed with an escort nearby?

To sum their behavior, i beleive is in need of work, but hardcoded. To use an old phrase, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". But then again. im on crack, and i don't have a clue. Must be all this peyote im smoking :rotfl: