NYGM and GW - Ship Damage FAQ

[Keelbuster]

First: I love you modders. Thank you for all you've done for us regular gamers.

Second: Criticism:

In NYGM TW, the ships act like they are empty - no cargo. I imagine that the allies would have filled ships to their maximum safe level. This can't be a whole lot more than the buoyancy required to stay afloat. Torpedoes damage, and the flooding of compartments, should doom a fully-loaded ship. In the current setup, they act as if they are empty - you have to compromise almost every compartment. This can't be realistic. It seems like there's a sense (among H-core modders) that we (H-core gamers) should be sinking a certain amount of tonnage (consistent with historical values) and to meet this constraint, modders have done two things - made ships unrealistically difficult to sink (e.g. too much overall buoyancy) as well as making their tonnage value unrelaistically low (e.g. 8000 tns for a T3).

In NYGM TW it's very hard to sink a ship if you damage it such that if takes on water on an even keel - you can torpedo/shell almost all compartments, and it won't settle because of some buoyance issue (i guess). The only efficient way that I've found to sink a ship is to destroy it's fore-fore bow compartments (bow tip), but leaving the engine compartmanet and all aft compartments intact! This way it drives it's bow down and that kills the boat.

Why are we so concerned about historical tonnage values? There is probably a way to normalize our values if we want to compare to historical values.

I don't think a C3 cargo should take 3.5 torpedoes on average. It really _feels_ like these ships are EMPTY. We end up killing them by hitting max HP anyway - if they settle on an even keel then they will not likely sink due to flooding. They have too much buoyancy for ships that are moving important materiel across the ocean.

That's my comment. It probably echos many others.


Cheers,

Kb

[Der Teddy Bar]

Keelbuster,
Please read the NYGM Ship Damage Mod Read Me file. The area that is most important in relation to your post deals with the difficulties and neccesaties of compromise.

This is what the NYGM Ship Damage Mod V2 will seek to address.

Not only will each ship be unique with regards to zones, but as an example, the Small Merchant ship originally shared 5 zones with the Coastal Merchant (Tramp Steamer) now has 12 exclusive zones including 'bulkheads'.

It would take 12 max HP torpedoes to expend the ships HP or 18 min HP torpedoes.

As far as doing the NYGM Ship Damage Mod, all I can say is that it is a laborious, time consuming & frustrating task that offers little to no joy in the process.

No one seems to read or understand the read me file. I can only work within the game engine, I am not recoding it.

It is such a unrewarding chore that I have often considered not pursuing this Mod.

[Yahoshua]

The reward is always at the end Teddy Bar.

Just cuz you're waist-deep in mud doesn't mean you're not digging in a gold mine.

If it helps any, I appreciate what you're doing for us.

Thank You

[Keelbuster]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Keelbuster,
Please read the NYGM Ship Damage Mod Read Me file. The area that is most important in relation to your post deals with the difficulties and neccesaties of compromise.

This is what the NYGM Ship Damage Mod V2 will seek to address.

Not only will each ship be unique with regards to zones, but as an example, the Small Merchant ship originally shared 5 zones with the Coastal Merchant (Tramp Steamer) now has 12 exclusive zones including 'bulkheads'.

It would take 12 max HP torpedoes to expend the ships HP or 18 min HP torpedoes.

As far as doing the NYGM Ship Damage Mod, all I can say is that it is a laborious, time consuming & frustrating task that offers little to no joy in the process.

No one seems to read or understand the read me file. I can only work within the game engine, I am not recoding it.

It is such a unrewarding chore that I have often considered not pursuing this Mod.

dTB - thanks for the reply. I read the FAQ before, and understood it (i think), but read it again anyways. This time, the passage that caught my attention was:

"There is no damage team on the ships to stop them from flooding and in essence the damage model is simply “once it starts to flood it will to 100%�. The duh statement is if a single compartment’s negative buoyancy exceeds the ships positive buoyancy then it simply sinks."

What I was suggesting (not-so-technically) in my previous post was to reduce the overall positive buoyancy of ships. This is literally what is bothering me. Ships seem too buoyant to be full of cargo. They have too much postivie buoyancy to spare.

The second thing i am wondering is: when a compartment goes below the surface (either by wave, or by being pulled under by another flooded compartment), it floods too right? Either that, or if a part of the ship goes under the surface to a certain degree, it destroys the ship or causes critical flooding elsewhere. There appear to be 'chain-reaction' sinkings like this. Is this the case? If it's explained elsewhere I'm sorry to have missed it.

And, I'm highly thankful of the hours you guys have put into testing this. My criticism was not aimed at your effort; I applaud this kind of effort (it may be more than the original dev team put in!). Rather, I'm providing feedback on the behaviour over hundreds of sinkings.

I can't wait to try out the new mod you are developing.

Kb

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Keelbuster

The second thing i am wondering is: when a compartment goes below the surface (either by wave, or by being pulled under by another flooded compartment), it floods too right? Either that, or if a part of the ship goes under the surface to a certain degree, it destroys the ship or causes critical flooding elsewhere. There appear to be 'chain-reaction' sinkings like this. Is this the case? If it's explained elsewhere I'm sorry to have missed it.

By default NO... BUT.... This is a feature of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod V2.

NYGM have also implemented 'sink' zones that ensure that a ship will sink when it should. That is, on occasion a ship would be 2/3rds sunk with water across the cargo holds with the player possibly being credited with sinking the ship, or it may require a few rounds before it will go under fully. This will now not be the case. These new 'sink' zones will come into their own during heavy seas as when the ship you attacked bobs into and out of the water, there is a chance that the new zone will slowly flood and sink a ship that in calmer seas would not have sunk.

Cheers...

[Keelbuster]

Sounds great! I look forward to V2.

Kb

[GlobalExplorer]

This mod is a very important development for the future of SHIII, but I agree with Keelbuster and others that the current system is not working in a satisfying way (for me).

I did several test runs in ports, against convoys, with manual and automatic targetting, short or realistic sinking times, and the results are always the same:
- Ships refuse to sink with a reasonable amount of torps (e.g 5 torps for a T2, 3 for a small merchant lol)
- Often I was not being given credit for ships sunk (because of long sinking times)

One time I was pumping 12 eels into 3 docked, stopped ships in Kiel harbour, without being credited for a single sinking. Needless to say that I also used up another 75 88mm shells for the tanker, before I gave up.

This is not intended to be disrespectful of your work. I love the idea, the parts that work are very impressive, this mod has huge potential. I'd just say that in the initial release you might have gone over the top with regards to realism, and forgot about gameplay.

P.S. I use the version which comes with GW1.1, so this might add to the problems I have, or it might not, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

No one seems to read or understand the read me file.
Kb

As to that, TB, with all respect, but in Germany there used to be a sign on phone boxes, which said: "keep-it-short". Even the most complicated facts can be explained in a simple way, but it requires an effort.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

This mod is a very important development for the future of SHIII, but I agree with Keelbuster and others that the current system is not working in a satisfying way (for me).

At the time that I created the NYGM Ships Damage Mod V1 I actually had no idea of what was what. I sat down and changed values and put 2 + 2 together and come up with 4.5, which under the cuircumstances was close enough.

So after my observational guess work off we went to make the ships sink, and to make them sink without the instant 'Enemy Ship Sunk' messgae.

Of course there was the small issue that everyone seems to forget about and that is making 12 ships with differnet behaviour work with 1 set of 5 values... Where the difference for the bow zone of 2, i.e. changing 7 to a 9 had one ship on nine almost showing no sinking and the other ship sinking like a stone.

But at least now I can change that.

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I did several test runs in ports, against convoys, with manual and automatic targetting, short or realistic sinking times, and the results are always the same:
- Ships refuse to sink with a reasonable amount of torps (e.g 5 torps for a T2, 3 for a small merchant lol)
- Often I was not being given credit for ships sunk (because of long sinking times)

One time I was pumping 12 eels into 3 docked, stopped ships in Kiel harbour, without being credited for a single sinking. Needless to say that I also used up another 75 88mm shells for the tanker, before I gave up.

I make no excusses for the mod being as it is, again we come back to originally not being able to change the ships. Now I can, but only recently have I been able to first change the ships to have thier own values and/or redesign them to hopefully be better.

It is not as easy as it sounds, it takes massive to make the ships sink, to sink without instant notification.

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

This is not intended to be disrespectful of your work. I love the idea, the parts that work are very impressive, this mod has huge potential. I'd just say that in the initial release you might have gone over the top with regards to realism, and forgot about gameplay.

P.S. I use the version which comes with GW1.1, so this might add to the problems I have, or it might not, I don't know.

As to that, TB, with all respect, but in Germany there used to be a sign on phone boxes, which said: "keep-it-short". Even the most complicated facts can be explained in a simple way, but it requires an effort.

No probs, feel free to make a user friendler version

Cheers,

Teddy

[Der Teddy Bar]

It is hard for me to see where and why others seem to have so much difficulties sinking ships.

I play WaW and in my last patrols these are my sinking for a VIIc. I have a 95% hit rate. No misses occured in these, the # number of torpedoes is how many were used to attain the figures.


12 Torpedoes used
SUNK
1 Large Tanker 9,765
1 Large Tanker 9,745
1 Bogue Escort Carrier 14,055
1 Illustrious Aircraft Carrier 23,000

**************************************************
12 Torpedoes used
SUNK
Troop Ship 9311 AM9233
Tramp Steamer 2533 AM9233
Large Cargo 6523 AM9521
Medium Tanker 8033 AM9226
Transport 7486 AM9226

Damaged 1 ship
Tramp Steamer 2500 AM9422

**************************************************
8 Torpedoes used
SUNK
1 Liberty ship 7,460
1 Liberty ship 7,462

Damaged
1 Liberty ship heavily damaged 7,476 tons
2nd Liberty ship damaged 7,476

**************************************************

1 Torpedoes used
SUNK
1 Coastal Merchant 2,532

**************************************************

Its not any big secret that I know of, I just aim for the cargo spaces and the engine rooms...

[JScones]

I agree DTB. Whilst it's prolly not comparing apples with apples, I use the NYGM ship damage component that's included in GW and have no complaints. A vast improvement over the shoot, bang, shoot, bang, shoot, kaboom of stock SH3.

Perhaps the problems stem from players still having the SH3 mindset. That is, plough in torps until instant kaboom. I find that I still use roughly the same number of torpedoes as I did with stock SH3 (but aim more wisely) and whilst I don't (always) get the instant indication of a sinking, I usually still end up with the sinking some while later.

I recently had the experience in a Type II of firing one torpedo at a small merchant-1800 tons or so, and waiting 12 hours for him to sink. I didn't fire a second, just let him be. Later I fired two eels each at two similar ships-one of them sank.

I know you need to aim at different parts of the ship, but occassionally even that doesn't work.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I would also like to debunk the idea that because the ships take a long time to sink you do not get credit.

NYGM tested extensively for distance and attaining credit. In all cases we always got credit when the ship sank, that is when the ship sunk.

It is a simple test to perform. Set up a single mission, set the ship to sink very very slowly, torpedo it and d0 a runner while staying in the F12 external view with the ship.

When the ship sank we marked our distance off, furtherest I got was 32+ kilometres away from the ship before I got a sunk report.


It is my feeling that you, the player, are assuming that 'that' ship should/will sink when in fact it will not.

Remember, even if you hit the same spot on 2 identical ships, there are many variables concerning the amount how the damage is inflicted.

Cheers,

Teddy

[Keelbuster]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

12 Torpedoes used
SUNK
1 Large Tanker 9,765
1 Large Tanker 9,745

dTB - I've been bitching a while about the tonnage for large tankers. In the mod arrangement i have (NYGM TW 1.1), my T3s are 8300 or so. 10k sounds right. Has the mod been updated since 1.1? Am I out of date?

Anyway, I like this mod. Sinking _should_ depend on available buoyancy, and I totally appreciate this attemp tto make the arcade game that Ubi gave us into something real. So, GOOD. But I agree with the other posters that feel that ships are too buoyant. You didnt' respond to my comment about total buoyancy. I assumed that I didn't know what I waas talking aaboot. But I'd like yer opinion- i'm imagining a boat that is fully loaded - like it has tanks and ammunition in every part so it's one step from sinking. Then, a bird lands on it, and it sinks. Total buoyancy should be less than the sum of the parts (compartments) I think. Not sure about this, but a fully loaded ship should go down if one major compartment is compromised. Am I wrong about this? I haven't read the history and the details of these matter, but intend to. Anyways, could you clarify the relationshp between total flotation (buoyancy) and the buoyancy of the compartments (or the sum of them)?

Thanks

Kb

[Der Teddy Bar]

Keelbuster,
SHIII and buoyancy.

1. Ships in SHIII do not have a set bouyancy value to cause a ship to sink. That is, the total "Flotability=" to sink each class of ship is different .
2. The total "Flotability=" required to sink a class of ship varies with where it is hit

For example, these are the Liberty ships figures from the NYGM SD V2.

In this scenario we have seperated out the cargo spaces, that is, instead of 1 config value for all 5 cargo spaces (that is the same for 8 other ships) we have set each cargo damage zone to have its own unique set of figures.

I then set all other damage zones to have Flotability=0, i.e. no sinking value.

Cargo1
30 = above
35 = bow under
40 = 1st mast
50 = sunk

Cargo2
50 = bow just above
60 = 1st mast
70 = sunk

Cargo3
70 = 1+ metres from deck
90 = soft sink, but 'she's going down message

Cargo4
50=at base of superstructure
55=at first deck of superstructure
did not test to sunk value

Cargo5
45=at first deck of superstructure
did not test to sunk value

Additionally
Machinery space
65= past rear mast
70= past rear mast
75 = bridge 1/2 submerged
80 = sunk


SHIII does not take into consideration a hypothetically loaded ship, as it does not change the ships keel depth, all ships are created equal.

It cannot be assumed that a fully loaded ship should go down because 1 major compartment is compromised. It depends on the wieght of the product, it depends on the volume that it takes up, that is, how much space is left for water. It depends on the ships structual integrity etc etc

[Keelbuster]

dTB - thanks for the reply.

Now, from these Liberty values - does this mean that any compartment can result in the sinking of the ship?

e.g.


Cargo1
30 = above
35 = bow under
40 = 1st mast
50 = sunk

Sorry to noob out on this...i thought that any compromised compartment would flood _completely_ .
Thus, cargo 1, 2, or 3 could result in the sinking of liberty?

Or are these values the buoyancy (flotability) of the whole ship?

I'm pretty sure (with NYGM TW 1.1) I've clobbered a cracked open a cargo hold, and waited for it to fill with water (e.g. 3 hrs later) bu the ship will stay afloat.

I'm a bit confused. Hate to bug you on this...but I'm interested.

Kb