Realism mod (discussion)

Originally Posted by ChaosDuck7

IIRC according to what a dev in discord said, the "under the hood" simulation of this game (im assuming things like sonar and stuff) is much more realistic than the silent hunter series.


Can a dev confirm?

Sorry but that's like saying "we're proud to say our automobile can go faster than a bicycle!".

Even if CW would model everything sonar 100% true to life... so what?
The rest of the game is lacking, in many areas, and that's the problem.

Go play some "Fast Attack" from the nineties.
Probably the best (modern) subsim ever made in terms of authenticity/overall quality, with (near) perfect gameplay.
Julhelm said CW was "heavily inspired" by Fast Attack.
Honestly, I do not see that at all.
Not one bit.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Sorry but that's like saying "we're proud to say our automobile can go faster than a bicycle!".

Even if CW would model everything sonar 100% true to life... so what?
The rest of the game is lacking, in many areas, and that's the problem.

Go play some "Fast Attack" from the nineties.
Probably the best (modern) subsim ever made in terms of authenticity/overall quality, with (near) perfect gameplay.
Julhelm said CW was "heavily inspired" by Fast Attack.
Honestly, I do not see that at all.
Not one bit.

I hadn't played Fast Attack, so I can't compare, but you hadn't been very specific about your complaints (at least on this thread) other than the pinging thing, and I think it is invalid.

On the realism front, you argue that they shouldn't be pinging without some provocation. But in the meta of the game, you will almost always have provoked them. In the campaign map, the most common thing you are doing is hurtling through the water at a SoA of 26 knots (by default the Primary Mouse button is used). Presumably, you weren't actually doing a steady 26 knots - otherwise the scenario screen would start with "We have detected a torpedo in the water, bearing ...". You were doing a sprint-and-drift and in one of the drifts you managed to pick up the contact, but all that means is that you were even faster during your sprints.

Even your patrol speed (the second most common scenario) of 10 knots is likely composed of a series of sprints and drifts. Really, you did not provoke them? Even if you managed to set an ambush ... not only is that only the 3rd most common scenario, but if you thought this is a great ambush position, why can't the enemy be allowed that intelligence?

So in the very vast majority of scenarios, it is at least plausible the enemy suspects you are in the area and the decision to make the AI act like it is the optimal choice.

[Julhelm]

Fast Attack has near perfect gameplay if you're a hardcore sub nut passionate about the subject matter. If you're not, the interface is too cumbersome and the combat too abstract, and that's why it ultimately failed commercially. It's still better than any Sonalysts sim, but DW ultimately failed to perform as well which is why noone has touched nuclear subs in over a decade.

I would love to do Fast Attack w/ dynamic campaign and SH5-like 3D models, but a self-funded 2-man studio like ours just don't have the economic resources or the manpower to pull that off from scratch. We have to do the best with what we have. It's that simple.

[stormrider_sp]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Fast Attack has near perfect gameplay if you're a hardcore sub nut passionate about the subject matter. If you're not, the interface is too cumbersome and the combat too abstract, and that's why it ultimately failed commercially. It's still better than any Sonalysts sim, but DW ultimately failed to perform as well which is why noone has touched nuclear subs in over a decade.

I would love to do Fast Attack w/ dynamic campaign and SH5-like 3D models, but a self-funded 2-man studio like ours just don't have the economic resources or the manpower to pull that off from scratch. We have to do the best with what we have. It's that simple.

What do you mean Sonalysts failed to perform, what are you talking about? We had more than 10 full sub squadrons in our Seawolves fleet back in the days. One could find multiplayer anytime of the day as he wished. Honestly, I don't recall any community as alive as Seawolves during her prime years... What sonalysts failed to do was to bring its simulator up to date, in line with new gaming technologies, but even then, 20 years after, under the hood its still far superior to CW. Even commercially, if that's your point, I doubt that there would even had been follow ups like Fleet Command, SC and DW if it wasnt for 688i HK's commercial sucess alone.

I wouldn't mind having a Fast Attack 2 sim without any fancy dynamic campaing. A moddable modern fast attack, with 3d interiors, proper physics and crew management with good map and scenario editor and I'd be once again a happy subsimmer for at least a another decade.

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

.

I wouldn't mind having a Fast Attack 2 sim without any fancy dynamic campaing. A moddable modern fast attack, with 3d interiors, proper physics and crew management with good map and scenario editor and I'd be once again a happy subsimmer for at least a another decade.

That.
Also, the "dynamic campaign" of cw doesn't really cut it for me. I can't say why but there's just something missing and while it may be dynamic, it still is the same again and again.

Meanwhile I re-played the RSR campaign for dangerous waters multiple times.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

What do you mean Sonalysts failed to perform, what are you talking about? We had more than 10 full sub squadrons in our Seawolves fleet back in the days. One could find multiplayer anytime of the day as he wished. Honestly, I don't recall any community as alive as Seawolves during her prime years... What sonalysts failed to do was to bring its simulator up to date, in line with new gaming technologies, but even then, 20 years after, under the hood its still far superior to CW. Even commercially, if that's your point, I doubt that there would even had been follow ups like Fleet Command, SC and DW if it wasnt for 688i HK's commercial sucess alone.

I wouldn't mind having a Fast Attack 2 sim without any fancy dynamic campaing. A moddable modern fast attack, with 3d interiors, proper physics and crew management with good map and scenario editor and I'd be once again a happy subsimmer for at least a another decade.

Commercially, of course. The reason Sonalysts haven't made any new sims is because DW failed to meet sales expectations. Had it been a profitable venture, they would still be here. But they have not made a new game in over 10 years.

You sound like you would rather be playing DW, so why are you here complaining about our game when we've always been up front with the fact it's not like DW, nor was it ever intended to be. If DW is what you want to play...

...play DW.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

You sound like you would rather be playing DW, so why are you here complaining about our game when we've always been up front with the fact it's not like DW, nor was it ever intended to be. If DW is what you want to play...

...play DW.

Well, I might be off, but I don't think he expected it to be DW at all, that much is clear from his previews posts. However, washing away any critic with "go play DW", is not leading anywhere either.

CW has a lot of potential, and the first patch already fixed a lot of leaks it had, while the beta patch 1.02 reads promising as well.
The upcoming new GUI and crew sounds will also make a big difference (for me!) and if you continue to develop this title for a while, as you do now, I am quite content that CW can be come what many more hardcore simmers hoped for, as of now, it absolutely is not what I'd call a "simulation"
(subjective term anyways, sure).

[stormrider_sp]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Commercially, of course. The reason Sonalysts haven't made any new sims is because DW failed to meet sales expectations. Had it been a profitable venture, they would still be here. But they have not made a new game in over 10 years.

You sound like you would rather be playing DW, so why are you here complaining about our game when we've always been up front with the fact it's not like DW, nor was it ever intended to be. If DW is what you want to play...

...play DW.

You know, you keep pushing this "not-DW-stance", but since CW was at least meant to be a subsim, as a subsim it shall be judged.


Title: Cold Waters
Genre: Indie, Simulation, Strategy
Developer: Killerfish Games
Publisher: Killerfish Games
Release Date: 5 Jun, 2017

Just met two Victors in campaign, a Victor I and III.
Ambushed them, 5kts, stopped engines as soon as I was in-game.

Seconds later, the pinging started.
Oh hello there!
Fired tube 1 down the bearing I just received from the ping.
Kill.
No serious evasive actions besides altering course slightly, and cavitating for a brief moment, before slowing down again, not moving out of the torpedoes arc at all.

The Victor III started pinging me after the engagement with the Victor I was over. Until then, it stayed silent - and undetected!

Same story.
Ping received -> Mk48 send.
Hit and heavily damaged, forced it to surface (a nice detail!).

But then the usual lackluster AI hilarity ensued.
It drove around aimlessly and soon started to ping again and even cavitate,
giving me a 95% solution.
Fish away -> kill.


Number of enemy torpedoes fired: 0

And that, I see a lot.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I hadn't played Fast Attack, so I can't compare, but you hadn't been very specific about your complaints (at least on this thread) other than the pinging thing, and I think it is invalid.

On the realism front, you argue that they shouldn't be pinging without some provocation.

No. I did not say that.
I said I doubt the doctrine was to ping away all/most of the time. I didn't say anything else.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

But in the meta of the game, you will almost always have provoked them.

Assumptions how I play the game don't help here, especially if they are wrong.
Whenever possible, wich is most of the time due to rather good recon everywhere, I ambush them, which sets your speed to 5kts.
And no, I see no sign that the enemy detected me before or after pinging, so your assumption Ithat they ping because I was detected doesn't work out here.