Realism mod (discussion)

[ScreamingElectron]

I've considered addressing the warhead values in my mod as well. Until last night. I shot at a krivak and Grisha (I think), and one of the boats took 2 torps. The first one I shot took damage, and proceeded to run away for about 3-5 minutes, before sinking. The second was busy digging out when I put torp #2 up his ass.
I guess my point is that we should give the devs time to sort things out themselves as well. There will always be time to clean things up when they've decided to retire.

[jenrick]

I have had ships break contact. If I attack a landing force, I've had the escorts come after me while the LSTs disengage. Also, I've hit a Kirov with one torpedo to have it disengage while the escorts come after me.

I've also experienced ships being "killed" but staying afloat and burning for the remainder of the match.

I wasn't referring to craft fleeing combat, that I have seen. I hand't seen a combatant flee after being damaged, interesting. I put 2 fish into the Kirov, and it just came barreling in (2 which 2 more fish solved that issue).

On the burning ship, was it marked as a kill on the tac map? Also were you close enough for it to have launched weapons? I'm curious about what all is modeled now.

-Jenrick

[ScreamingElectron]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

That is a good point. Are there any real-world submariners out there that can comment on this? It's like driving a car. Cruising on the highway, you're using a certain throttle (making turns for that speed, as it were). If you were to accelerate to that speed using the cruising throttle, it would take forever (infinitely long in a mathematical sense). So, you use more throttle to accelerate to that cruising speed and then reduce throttle to maintain that speed once you attain it. I'm curious as to the distinction for this in naval turns. "Make turns for x knots" means (I would think) turn the propeller at the speed necessary to maintain x knots indicated. Would there be a situation where you apply more throttle to get to speed x more quickly and then reduce throttle?

Also, consider that cavitation will reduce the output thrust of any propeller. A spin speed adequate to run 25kts on the surface will (if cavitating) generate a higher speed at non-cavitation depth. There are tons of variables and factors to consider here. Being a Unity developer myself, and having looked at the source for this game, I can assure you that the poor programmer(s) is already dealing with a mind-crushing amount of variables and functions.
Give them some more time to fine tune.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by jenrick

I wasn't referring to craft fleeing combat, that I have seen. I hand't seen a combatant flee after being damaged, interesting. I put 2 fish into the Kirov, and it just came barreling in (2 which 2 more fish solved that issue).

On the burning ship, was it marked as a kill on the tac map? Also were you close enough for it to have launched weapons? I'm curious about what all is modeled now.

-Jenrick

It was marked as a kill and yes I was close enough. I've been told by Julhelm that there is a chance for a surface ship to not sink and to stay (burning) on the surface.

[stormrider_sp]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

I think this is a good idea, and you're generally right in what you are saying, however there are always exceptions.

Early 80s for towed array is a little iffy for me, I think the 688s just had the TB-16 starting out (so did some of the Sturgeons) but many of the others had earlier "clip-on" types BQR-15 and -23 if I'm not mistaken, which were a step or two behind the TB-16 and came with speed restrictions (would be very interesting if the clip-on Towed array could be an inventoried item like the sonobuoys, so if you ripped it off you could choose to fit another when you enter port).

As far as the sonobouys, I'm in agreement, typically I wouldn't think that the batteries would be as strong as what a helo could put out through a dipping sonar, however what I'm most interested in when it comes to buoys is if they act like they "should" specifically if they are alternated over / under the layer and if the AI will use / has to use patterns to correctly localize a contact. My understanding is that until the electronics got a bit more sophisticated, the passive buoys were very general with little to no bearing information, so typically patterns would be dropped and signal strengths compared to localize the contact (or you could risk just dropping an active buoy if you think that the passive contact is strong enough). The point I'm trying to get across is that I don't feel that dropping one buoy which is then followed by a rain of depth charges and torpedoes really fits with realism.

Regarding the Sonobuoys and other realism issues, the thing is that there are so many shortcuts and oversimplifications in the physics engine of this game that the mere fact of inputing real data won't necessarily give the expected real results.

In this specific case of a dipping sonar being stronger than a sonobuoy, the dipping sonar is also affected strongly by a perpendicular radiated noise coming from the host platform, the helicopter, while the sonobuoy enjoys a lower ambient noise and interference. Now, is the helicopter noise simulated? Is any noise even properly simulated*?!



Driving a submarine in 3d as you would in a Flight sim is really enjoyable, but there's just not too much of subsim in this game yet. I really hope that the devs will find ways to include old hardcore subsimmers in their public, cause, for me, there's really not much in there. For me the sole fact that soviet ssns start any scenario already pinging is already a show stopper.

[Haukka81]

I agree, AI subs should not ping least if they are not allready detected or under attack.

Sub vs Sub should be 99% passive hide and seek !


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Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

Driving a submarine in 3d as you would in a Flight sim is really enjoyable, but there's just not too much of subsim in this game yet. I really hope that the devs will find ways to include old hardcore subsimmers in their public, cause, for me, there's really not much in there. For me the sole fact that soviet ssns start any scenario already pinging is already a show stopper.

Can I give you a hug?

Because you spoke with my Heart on your tongue, really.
Let me give you a hug.

Where are you going.
Stop.
STOP!

HUG ME!

[RushTheBus]

I'm not sure how your playing but more often than not soviet SSNs don't ping me until I'm ether close and they detect launch transients or they ping when the mk48 is coming in for the kill.


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[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

Driving a submarine in 3d as you would in a Flight sim is really enjoyable, but there's just not too much of subsim in this game yet. I really hope that the devs will find ways to include old hardcore subsimmers in their public, cause, for me, there's really not much in there. For me the sole fact that soviet ssns start any scenario already pinging is already a show stopper.

I'll actually disagree. Having played DW, SC and 688 before moving to this, I find myself actually being much more of a submariner and concentrating much harder with this game than in the sims. I am actually sneaking around, desperately checking my counterdetection margin and clearing datum trying to dodge those Super-Silexes.

Though nominally the first three are sims, I actually play them in a much more "gamey" fashion. I would use flank speed a lot, run at flank speed 5 feet above the ocean floor, use active just because I'm impatient for the TMA, compensate for bad solutions by "flying" my torpedoes because a lot of the time the sim lets you get away with this stuff. Even if they flip a torpedo at you, they are relatively easy to dodge. The sim just doesn't punish you very hard. Now I am being punished for the smallest indiscretions.

The Soviet SSNs don't often ping in my experience at the start, though they do ping in mid-combat. Personally, I interpret this as them having gotten a whiff of me and immediately deciding to sanitize the closest 10000 or so yards to them. Anyway, the truth is that you generally have a counterdetection advantage, so if you don't let them ping you are basically asking them to be lambs versus your new, superior Los Angeles class sub.

[Monkie]

Please allow me to vent a second:

The steam forums are full of people whining and crying that it doesn't feel like a subsim because of the controls. Now I come here and see that true subsim fans are trying to better the game with productive conversation, which is great.

If you feel the game is broken, unrealistic, etc that is wonderful, but why would you try to derail a thread that is doing it's best to move forward and make the game better?

You seriously think a couple of developers can create a sonar simulation so accurate that it's simulates the blade-wash off a hovering ASW helicopter?

If you feel it's silly because it doesn't have a multi-million dollar sonar simulation then relax, and wait another decade and hopefully somebody will create that simulator for you. Maybe the USN will sell you it's old software by then.

Now I hope this thread goes back to those who I'm sure will make the game even more enjoyable for the community wanting a bit more realism.

[PL_Harpoon]

I think expecting CW to accurately simulate every aspect is is just misinterpreting the game. It's about making tactical/strategic decisions as a captain of a nuclear sub.

For example, I'm sure the captain does need to know how the sound moves through water, so he can give orders to optimize detection, if needed. But he doesn't need to know every detail of it.
And so the game doesn't need to simulate stuff that wouldn't affect the captain's decisions.

Right now we can change sensitivity for different sensors, weapon parameters and ship data. All that's left is to find values that give results as close to real ones as possible.
And I agree with Stormrider_sp, that putting real data will get us closer to realism. If a non-real value will give real result that's fine by me. We'll put that one and enjoy the game.
The biggest problem with that is that there is very little actual data on the subject. We can't say, for example, with fill certainty, how far away should a Soviet sonar buoy detect a LA class sub sailing at 5kn in calm weather. That's why I made this thread. So that we can get some sort of consensus on what things need changing and which values would give more realistic results.

So far the thing that most of us seems to agree is that weapons need more punch.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by Haukka81

I agree, AI subs should not ping least if they are not allready detected or under attack.

Sub vs Sub should be 99% passive hide and seek !


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You're overlooking soviet doctrine here. Until very late in 70s the soviets had a pretty stark disadvantage when it came to quieting, sonar and electronics. While they closed much of the gap starting with the Victor III and later Akula, prior to these being available they relied on using active sonar much more than US subs ever did.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

You're overlooking soviet doctrine here. Until very late in 70s the soviets had a pretty stark disadvantage when it came to quieting, sonar and electronics. While they closed much of the gap starting with the Victor III and later Akula, prior to these being available they relied on using active sonar much more than US subs ever did.

Actually, that's somewhat reflected in the game. I sometimes encounter Novembers and Victor I's pinging away, but most of the time when facing Victor III or Sierra subs they stay silent. It doesn't make much difference as you'll find them first anyway (unless you're running at some higher speeds).

Originally Posted by Monkie

...but why would you try to derail a thread that is doing it's best to move forward and make the game better?

This is a discussion thread for a potential realism mod.
To understand what might need to be modified, it is paramount to understand and acquire what is missing, needs fixing or adjustment.
To do so, everyone may add his 2 cents.

You are complaining about people talking Bananas on the Chiquita forums.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Actually, that's somewhat reflected in the game. I sometimes encounter Novembers and Victor I's pinging away, but most of the time when facing Victor III or Sierra subs they stay silent. It doesn't make much difference as you'll find them first anyway (unless you're running at some higher speeds).

Yeah that's what I'm pointing out. The notion that some others have posted on here that enemy subs using active sonar is unrealistic is flat-out wrong.