Still Confused about detecting ships

[Delgard]

Playing the campaign scenarios can be a challenge simply by understanding the intent of the orders. The intel weenies can be slacking in their writing, too. But, what do you expect from shore ****ters?

Originally Posted by Delgard

Playing the campaign scenarios can be a challenge simply by understanding the intent of the orders. The intel weenies can be slacking in their writing, too. But, what do you expect from shore ****ters?

The campaign is really lackluster, mildly spoken. While the original story is great, the missions are ridiculous. Some are completed in a matter of minutes. I mean... what?
I feel the designer(s) went overboard by trying to make it multi-platform playable. Quality suffered a lot from it.

I'd love to provide something better, but the editor is really uncomfortable to work with and doesn't leave too many possibilities. Still, working on something, though.

[Delgard]

Ahh, life ain't so bad. I have learned to do basic editing to experience different things. Plus, seems like a lot of downloads. Always nice to nag on the landlubbers. Their cable TV and McDonalds! Ack!

[Wildcat]

There is a very detailed manual called The Red Book available on this site in the downloads section.

It was written originally for 688i and Sub Command, if I remember correctly.

It is filled with VERY good information, especially regarding detection and strategy and tactics.

Unfortunately it was written heavily with multiplayer engagements in mind, so you have to consider that when playing offline, but the advice is still all very solid. It also covers manual TMA. Most people can do manual TMA if they are forced to, but the red book discusses a few situations in which you should switch to manual TMA in order to make a faster and better attack on a dynamic target like a submarine or player controlled FFG.

Very good manual, it is of higher quality than a lot of books you can buy on Amazon yet it is free. Download it ASAP and read it front to back a couple of times and you'll be sinking everything around you.

[Nexus7]

speed150mph gave an extensive description already (I wonder what p7p8 considers wrong?).

This is exclusively for subs:
Classification in general is a difficult task, perhaps more difficult than TMA. Using NB with spherical, hull, and towed array will help discriminate. To listen at the sound is a good idea, I've never used it as a classification tool, I assume it requires the experience. Does it really function for submerged too? Gotta try.

It was not mentioned but the DEMON can give you the number of blades of the contact's propeller; gotta remember that depending on signal strength you might not get all the "lines". USNI reference usually contains that info for the modelled platforms.
Perhaps weird, but the HF sonar is another visive classification tool. Is the target deaf, HF sonar can be a classification tool, especially interesting for sumberged.

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Is the target deaf, HF sonar can be a classification tool, especially interesting for sumberged.

HF sonar cannot be detected in DW, unfortunately.
It is not really emitting anything because is programmed as a "visual" sensor.

And yes, of course you can classify by sound, partially.
However, if one is that close, enough NB frequency lines should be visible anyways.

[Nexus7]

And, sound for classification purposes can be the instant classification tool (biologics/mechanics discrimination). Is it my impression or biologics are very rare in DW missions if compared to Sub Command?

[p7p8]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

speed150mph gave an extensive description already (I wonder what p7p8 considers wrong?).

Hmm let's begin:

Originally Posted by speed150mph

Determining surface vs sub contact is fairly easy unless at very long range.

This is not true. Ships in SP scenarios are often without EMCON and with high speed. This is NOT happen in MP game. Perry, Udaloy or Bergamini can also decrease speed to 4-6 kts. Surface units have advantage over sub at high speed - they can still to control situation while sub at high speed is deaf.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

Listen on broadband, turn on sound...

This is completly wrong! Your main tool for detection is NARROWBAND low frequency sonar - on surf and sub platform.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

First thing I do I quickly guage distance (how loud the noise is)

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Originally Posted by speed150mph

Then you do your TMA if you know how

Once again this is completly wrong. TMA work is mainly for determining range because bearing you have from sensor and direction (left or right) you have after small amount of time.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

and then if he's distant enough to now worry me I go to periscope depth.(...)
I raise periscope and try to grab a picture

Playable surface units have very good TA sonars for identification - much better than submarines. That is because all "strings" on narrowband (LOFAR) are indexed. On screen below number "15" is Los Angeles Flt I class (60 235 325 991)



That means - if you are close enough for visual identiffication - you are probably detected.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

At periscope depth I start off with my ESM antenna. This will get you a quick ID unless their running emcon conditions.

Almost all experienced surface players uses EMCON as long as they can 80%-90% of game.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

I look at all the data I have, try and classify.

You should do this before giving tracker! Most scenarios have intel informations about enemy. Checking first and second string from acoustic signature is very helpfull before you mark contact.
For example:
- all russian units have first freq. 50 Hz
- second string gives you tonnage factor
- third string gives you engine type
If you looking for Akula class you should mark all 50 205 contacts. This combination is not common for other units.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

If I can't identify then I slowly creep closer until I can.

Going slow is in most cases bad tactic. If you are slow i have only first string (50 or 60) but TMA gives me your predicted speed. If i have 3 contacts with only 60 Hz:
- 60 Hz moving 10 kts
- 60 Hz moving 12 kts
- 60 Hz moving 4 kts
...I send helo over third contact, because in most cases it is (newbie) player submarine.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

As others have mentioned, ships and subs have very different procedures to classify, with ships being easier since you have more options

No, you have less options. Let's compare subs and surfs
- good TA sonar - both
- ESM - both
- Active Interception - Subs and not all surfs (Udaloy and Bergamini have it)
- Periscope/visual detection - both (but sub have better)
- Radar - both (but surfs have better)
- Sonobuoys - only surf
- Helo - only surf
- MAD form Helo - only surf
- Mast detection - only surf
- using sensors (ex: radar) from differend possition than your ship - only surf
- Nixie - only surf
- Decoys - only sub
- LINK all the time - surf
- Anti Ship Missiles - only sub
- SUBROCs - some surfs (Udaloy, Bergamini)

Of course ASM and SUBROCS against proper target. Subs have SUBROCs but cant use it against Surfs. Surfs have ASM but they are useless against subs

Methods described by speed150mph looks like mix 2:1 (2 parts from Silent Hunter and one part from DW).

Fantastic post, good information!

[p7p8]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Just I wonder how it's thinkable that subs have better visual and radar capabilities than surface

In my opinion surface units have better radar than submarines. Please read more carefully

Originally Posted by p7p8

- Radar - both (but surfs have better)

Periscopes have good magnification and sometimes IR and other modes. They can detect surfs from longer distance than surf can detect periscope mast, sail or even surfaced sub.