Manchester Arena 'explosion'

Von Due · 05-24-17, 04:18 AM

What to do? I have no complete answers but pretending that this is a simple good vs evil thing, that this is a cultural thing, is not going to give a solution that excludes genocide.

Vote for those who oppose western interference with other sovereign states and watch how reality kicks in leaving those politicians impotent. Businesses and alliances matter, internally and internationally, national security is the front end of that, or in many cases the cover for actions done ranging from unethical to criminal. This is what we have been fighting for, not against.

Strong ciphers for the public is the best gift we ever gave terrorists and organized crime and the lobby and supporters of strong public ciphers have repeatedly stated that protection of these criminals and plotters is the price we have to pay for "freedom" in the digital world.

We have very much been part of the problem but we refuse to acknowledge that. What to do? Step one has to be that acknowledgement.

Skybird · 05-24-17, 04:44 AM

The US war 2003 and the inapt handling of the time after, has created the IS. British mid east polcies from teh past have created the lines drawn on the maps, with help by the French and some more, forcing together many people who had open bills with each other since generations and until today.

But the hostile and racist content of the Quranic ideology forgoes all this . The ongoing Muslim conquest against Asia, India, Europe, was not provoked. The Sunni-Shia civil war was not provoked by Europe. The invasion of Spain and the balkans and Aegian region, was not provoked. The claim to raise a caliphate in christian Europe, was not provoked. The attack on Constantinople, was not provoked. The crusades started not as a provokation, but a defensive response against ongoing aggressiona nd conquest. to recapture territory that was lost to a hostile aggressor. Grenada wa sno pacifist multicultural place, but a place ruled by the sword of Islam and Jews and Chrstians subjugated, progroms were not uncommon, and they were banned froms ocial highe rlife and better jobs, and were discmrinated by the law. This is not what tolernce and multiculturalism is about.

The problem is not so much our past. We casted our shadows, yes - but most people today understood that, and do not do that anymore, do not want to do it anymore. We moved on, we developed beyiond the medieval. islam still is stuck in the dark age. Its evil is inherent to its genes in that it is alraedy founded and artuclated by Muhammad. War and raids and violence and intimidation and hate and persecution and fear is all that is his heritage.

So do not expect ever that somethign people comes from those following Muhammad and declaring his words holy. Islam is a warrior ideology, strength through totalitarian control and uniform unity. Ther eis no other military effort in the known history of man that ever was as far reaching and long-lasting, than Islam, and no other idoleogy, including Chrstianity, has ever brought so many wars and has ever destroyd so many other foreign cultures and has signed respnsible for the slaughteirng of so many people, like Islam.

And whn you rmeind of these simple histori fact, you get dmenised, criminlaised, bullied, threatened. Not only by them, but by our own media, authorities, laws, people.

The West is a mental asylum.

Catfish · 05-24-17, 05:44 AM

Even if you completely rule out "the past" (which is bs since we live in the time heavily influenced by the past and still present politics, see Trump in Saudi Arabia), but let out ye olde innocent defensive crusades and so on, what about the present, happening right now?

Did you care to read the two links vonDue posted? What would you say if they accidentally kill your children because your neighbour might be an "insurgent". And it is not an isolated case. The hate that may derive from this has nothing to do with religion.

propbeanie · 05-24-17, 07:05 AM

All I can say is "read history", like from the 7th century time frame. As for the US involvement, all I'll say is "Thomas Jefferson", and it did not involve oil... and what started "The Great War", and who was one of the main antagonists?... What was that empire called again?

Catfish · 05-24-17, 08:53 AM

^ huh what has this to do with the UK and US manipulating governments in the middle east for oil in the 20ieth century, or with the drone war?

Skybird · 05-24-17, 10:00 AM

What people like you simply do not want to see, Catfish, is that Islam is an ideology of a certain content that is like this, and not like that, and it is like this even without the West doing the one thing or the other thing: the modern West plays no role regarding what the content of the Quran is. Muhammad was what today would be called a warlord, plain and simple. Attatürk called him a murderous desert bandit, and not more. He attacked. He blackmailed. He started raids. He started wars. He bribed. He intimidated. He murdered. He called for racist discrimination. He mocked his followers when they expressed doubts about that it is right to now kill infidels. What message do you expect from such a person? The Oriental version of the sermon on the mount...?

Von Due · 05-24-17, 10:09 AM

We can always start back in the 20th century with Britain and the Soviet Union co-invading Iran over oil, forcefully replacing the Shah with a puppet Shah. We can start with the despot Shah, the despot Saudi family and the inevitable reactions to those, leaving the Iranians as well as the Saudis squashed between an oppressive king and oppressive priests and religious nutters. The Shah and the Saudi kings must have studied King Leopold well. We can start with the nationalism that swept across Asia and Africa when the colonial times ended for pretty much all except France who till this day is heavily involved in several African countries with military precence as well as political pressure to secure resources like uranium. Or we can start with the nationalists and communists clashing in the 60's in Afghanistan and Pakistan and how the west and the USSR supported left and right as they pleased at any given moment. That's the 1960's not 60 AD. We can start with Israel and 1948, the birth of Pakistan out of India, Bangladesh too. The mess in the middle east the last decades. This is modern history. No need to look back at the Crusades to find enough reasons for extremism to get to terrorism. There are still old people alive today in Afghanistan who remember peace when men and women studied and worked side by side. There are now 2-3 generations who have seen nothing but continuous war, both civil war and invasions. To expect they will behave as if they had never seen war is lunacy.

EDIT Perhaps MI5 can get through where I fail:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/...ity.terrorism1

ValoWay · 05-24-17, 11:31 AM

Poverty, unemployment, especially youth unemployment in countries which keep producing new blood for terror organisations are a big issue..

Those people have no perspective in life.. I theorize that radical beliefs are often the only way out of it, pretty much like drug abuse in the western world.. Poor people in the west tend to become obese and watch TV all day, do drugs while in the middle east people join terrorists in order to find meaning in life.. Failed drone strikes et cetera certainly aren't helping with that tendency..

Life sucks for those (often young) people and false prophets cleverly use religion to steer their anger against the west while the rich keep getting richer on both sides.. Hitler in the 1930s and the great depression comes to mind here..

05-24-17, 04:44 AM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,651 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The US war 2003 and the inapt handling of the time after, has created the IS. British mid east polcies from teh past have created the lines drawn on the maps, with help by the French and some more, forcing together many people who had open bills with each other since generations and until today. But the hostile and racist content of the Quranic ideology forgoes all this . The ongoing Muslim conquest against Asia, India, Europe, was not provoked. The Sunni-Shia civil war was not provoked by Europe. The invasion of Spain and the balkans and Aegian region, was not provoked. The claim to raise a caliphate in christian Europe, was not provoked. The attack on Constantinople, was not provoked. The crusades started not as a provokation, but a defensive response against ongoing aggressiona nd conquest. to recapture territory that was lost to a hostile aggressor. Grenada wa sno pacifist multicultural place, but a place ruled by the sword of Islam and Jews and Chrstians subjugated, progroms were not uncommon, and they were banned froms ocial highe rlife and better jobs, and were discmrinated by the law. This is not what tolernce and multiculturalism is about. The problem is not so much our past. We casted our shadows, yes - but most people today understood that, and do not do that anymore, do not want to do it anymore. We moved on, we developed beyiond the medieval. islam still is stuck in the dark age. Its evil is inherent to its genes in that it is alraedy founded and artuclated by Muhammad. War and raids and violence and intimidation and hate and persecution and fear is all that is his heritage. So do not expect ever that somethign people comes from those following Muhammad and declaring his words holy. Islam is a warrior ideology, strength through totalitarian control and uniform unity. Ther eis no other military effort in the known history of man that ever was as far reaching and long-lasting, than Islam, and no other idoleogy, including Chrstianity, has ever brought so many wars and has ever destroyd so many other foreign cultures and has signed respnsible for the slaughteirng of so many people, like Islam. And whn you rmeind of these simple histori fact, you get dmenised, criminlaised, bullied, threatened. Not only by them, but by our own media, authorities, laws, people. The West is a mental asylum. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-24-17, 05:44 AM	#3
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,768 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Even if you completely rule out "the past" (which is bs since we live in the time heavily influenced by the past and still present politics, see Trump in Saudi Arabia), but let out ye olde innocent defensive crusades and so on, what about the present, happening right now? Did you care to read the two links vonDue posted? What would you say if they accidentally kill your children because your neighbour might be an "insurgent". And it is not an isolated case. The hate that may derive from this has nothing to do with religion. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

05-24-17, 07:05 AM	#4
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 10,098 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 2	All I can say is "read history", like from the 7th century time frame. As for the US involvement, all I'll say is "Thomas Jefferson", and it did not involve oil... and what started "The Great War", and who was one of the main antagonists?... What was that empire called again? __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

05-24-17, 08:53 AM	#5
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,768 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ huh what has this to do with the UK and US manipulating governments in the middle east for oil in the 20ieth century, or with the drone war? __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

05-24-17, 10:00 AM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,651 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	What people like you simply do not want to see, Catfish, is that Islam is an ideology of a certain content that is like this, and not like that, and it is like this even without the West doing the one thing or the other thing: the modern West plays no role regarding what the content of the Quran is. Muhammad was what today would be called a warlord, plain and simple. Attatürk called him a murderous desert bandit, and not more. He attacked. He blackmailed. He started raids. He started wars. He bribed. He intimidated. He murdered. He called for racist discrimination. He mocked his followers when they expressed doubts about that it is right to now kill infidels. What message do you expect from such a person? The Oriental version of the sermon on the mount...? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-24-17, 04:18 AM	#1
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	What to do? I have no complete answers but pretending that this is a simple good vs evil thing, that this is a cultural thing, is not going to give a solution that excludes genocide. Vote for those who oppose western interference with other sovereign states and watch how reality kicks in leaving those politicians impotent. Businesses and alliances matter, internally and internationally, national security is the front end of that, or in many cases the cover for actions done ranging from unethical to criminal. This is what we have been fighting for, not against. Strong ciphers for the public is the best gift we ever gave terrorists and organized crime and the lobby and supporters of strong public ciphers have repeatedly stated that protection of these criminals and plotters is the price we have to pay for "freedom" in the digital world. We have very much been part of the problem but we refuse to acknowledge that. What to do? Step one has to be that acknowledgement.

05-24-17, 10:09 AM	#7
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	We can always start back in the 20th century with Britain and the Soviet Union co-invading Iran over oil, forcefully replacing the Shah with a puppet Shah. We can start with the despot Shah, the despot Saudi family and the inevitable reactions to those, leaving the Iranians as well as the Saudis squashed between an oppressive king and oppressive priests and religious nutters. The Shah and the Saudi kings must have studied King Leopold well. We can start with the nationalism that swept across Asia and Africa when the colonial times ended for pretty much all except France who till this day is heavily involved in several African countries with military precence as well as political pressure to secure resources like uranium. Or we can start with the nationalists and communists clashing in the 60's in Afghanistan and Pakistan and how the west and the USSR supported left and right as they pleased at any given moment. That's the 1960's not 60 AD. We can start with Israel and 1948, the birth of Pakistan out of India, Bangladesh too. The mess in the middle east the last decades. This is modern history. No need to look back at the Crusades to find enough reasons for extremism to get to terrorism. There are still old people alive today in Afghanistan who remember peace when men and women studied and worked side by side. There are now 2-3 generations who have seen nothing but continuous war, both civil war and invasions. To expect they will behave as if they had never seen war is lunacy. EDIT Perhaps MI5 can get through where I fail: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/...ity.terrorism1 Last edited by Von Due; 05-24-17 at 11:10 AM.

05-24-17, 11:31 AM	#8
ValoWay Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: TubeONE Posts: 250 Downloads: 103 Uploads: 0	Poverty, unemployment, especially youth unemployment in countries which keep producing new blood for terror organisations are a big issue.. Those people have no perspective in life.. I theorize that radical beliefs are often the only way out of it, pretty much like drug abuse in the western world.. Poor people in the west tend to become obese and watch TV all day, do drugs while in the middle east people join terrorists in order to find meaning in life.. Failed drone strikes et cetera certainly aren't helping with that tendency.. Life sucks for those (often young) people and false prophets cleverly use religion to steer their anger against the west while the rich keep getting richer on both sides.. Hitler in the 1930s and the great depression comes to mind here.. Last edited by ValoWay; 05-24-17 at 12:07 PM.