EU was Hitler's idea

[Catfish]

^ Hmm, who is Stalin, who acts as the Tcheka, and who militarily "incorporates" other free nations in the EUSSR?
This is ridiculous.

[Skybird]

Not when you compare the administrative level, the structure of the state organs at the decision-making and planning level.

I am not the first guy in history realising the parallels, btw. Intitially my attention was brought to this by some British historian from Cambridge or Oxford, forgot his name, don'T know whether he is famous or not. Saw him some years ago in some special on tV by the BBC World channel. From there I dived deeper into it and gave it some thought, and found him to be correct. Others have come to comparable conclusions. The names for the different political bodies vary - their functions and schemes of power projection often match.

If you however take the claims by the EU bodies (and how they want to see themselves and want to be seen by others) literally, then of course both things are lightyears apart. But I see no excuses for taking the EU self-perception as serious any longer.

Same function lead to same form.

[mapuc]

A scientist, mostly get the chance to show other scholars their stuff and thereby get an accept of their "invention"(It's not invention I was looking for, but I can't remember the word I was thinking of using)

The author or authors of this book shall have the same chance to "convinced" other Historian.

To be honest I think it will be very hard to convinced other historians.

I guess the book will be a top sale among the believes or conspiracy

Markus

[Skybird]

Any newspaper that has the word "Express" in its title, already gives me the creeps!

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

What?

Explain to me what the EU has in common with the third Reich?
A fourth Reich would mean a reincarnation of the national-socialistic third Reich. Do we really need to even start trying to find similarities, or can we agree right away that calling Europe the fourth Reich 'unborn' is simply wrong?
You can say about European power-plays what you want, but implying it is, or will be, even can be something like a "Reich" (in the national-socialistic and/or imperialistic sense) is flat out off-target and sounds like a typical RT headline to me.

You misunderstood. As I would say again - 4th Reich to the 3rd Reich is what 3rd Reich was to the 2nd Reich and as such is a new imperial regime, not a new 3rd Reich because if it was, why would we call it the 4th?

My core criticism of the current EU is it's undemocratic nature where top officials are not accountable to the people.

The reason why I use the term "unborn" is because EU is not a consolidated centralised undemocratic empire at this moment.

The reason why I mention it at all is to state that 4th Reich (if it does exist in any form) is not a German state but a superstate containing a German state meaning that it may work against German interests.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

You misunderstood. As I would say again - 4th Reich to the 3rd Reich is what 3rd Reich was to the 2nd Reich and as such is a new imperial regime, not a new 3rd Reich because if it was, why would we call it the 4th?

Definitions matter.
The "Reich" is a german description of one country, and of one nation. So the term "Reich" cannot apply to Europe. There was the "Roman Reich of German Nation" back then, but this was an exception in more than one ways.
The "second" Reich was monarchistic, a "real" Reich or "Empire" if you so want, if a small one.
The "third" Reich was merely an invention or fantasy of Hitler, to get the old monarchistic military and Navy on his side. It had nothing to to with the initial coined description of a monarchistic Empire called "Reich". Hitler had no entitlement to call himself Caesar, Kaiser, or whatever.

My core criticism of the current EU is it's undemocratic nature where top officials are not accountable to the people.

The "current EU" is not undemocratic, i really do not know why so much people claim it were! Just because most are too lazy to just read about it does not make it undemocratic (too boring i guess, much more fun to just claim nonsense and troll).

http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/...d-bureaucrats/

http://www.businessinsider.de/is-the...16-3?r=UK&IR=T

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-reality-check

and so on, endlessly! You will probably not find this in Breitbart, Fox News or RT, for obvious reasons.

For all this hubbub about the EU commission (!!!), in this case it is not directly elected by the people, but is a representational democracy, just like we have it everywhere. And it can only propose, it has not much power, because all their proposals have to be agreed upon by all other national boards.
There are not any unelected bureaucrats in charge in the EU.

The reason why I use the term "unborn" is because EU is not a consolidated centralised undemocratic empire at this moment.

Now that'a twist, suddenly it's democratic again, but... on a way to an empire or even a dictatorship? Where do you see that? Because Juncker is an unsympathetic donkeyhole does not make him a dictator. He is just unpopular. But a lot of political decisions are. Especially when someone feels disadvantaged, for whatever (nationalistic? chauvinistic? xenophobic?) reason. But just because Mr Farage or LePen or Wiilders cry wolf does not mean it really is so. They are populists, their "job" is desinformation and agitation for their undemocratic goals.

The reason why I mention it at all is to state that 4th Reich (if it does exist in any form) is not a German state but a superstate containing a German state meaning that it may work against German interests.

Frankly, i see no reason of yours why to post such !"§$ ... if it were so Germany would be the first to try change that. But it indeed profits a lot from the single market and international say of almost 30 countries with one voice towards the world, just like all other members of the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/bl...over-last-year
All are shouting how much they have to give to the EU without ever mentioning the net gross advantage they have, from money coming back with interest to EU-sponsored national projects of all kinds like infrastructure, science (historical research and archeology being a major part), business, trade support across borders, a unified packaging system for effective transport at least within Europe, and so on. A lot of this stuff cannot be planned, be financed or enforced by one nation alone.

And (it is a big and) directly coming from the experiences of WW2, the distribution of help and money to parts of the EU that need it, is much more efficient, rightly and fair than if one national government did that alone. From wages, to social institutions, to health care. The people in England will experience that, but also those in Scotland and Ireland.

There are a lot of romantic ideas in England of a lost Empire that e.g. Farage (ab)uses, and unfortunately despite all the experience, information and education he has a lot of people hooked.

All this does not make the EU the fourth Reich

[Skybird]

It is Zweckoptimismus like this that often leads me to an attitude of "let it burn in high flames then".

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It is Zweckoptimismus like this that often leads me to an attitude of "let it burn in high flames then".

Oh I'm not totally sure about that. I found his post quite insightful and informative.

I'm not saying it changed my viewpoint or overall opinion but it certainly taught me a few details I was unaware of.

Nice one Kai

Originally Posted by Catfish

All this does not make the EU the fourth Reich

Shut up and hail our Führerin!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Oh I'm not totally sure about that. I found his post quite insightful and informative.

I'm not saying it changed my viewpoint or overall opinion but it certainly taught me a few details I was unaware of.

He judges it by its paperform, by its written self-description and how it wants to be seen. I judge it by its actual habits, practices and results. And I never forget that the real decision making is completely outside any countercontrol, but is done behind locked doors by the heads of states - who all too often have demonstrated that they break their own self-made laws and ignore their own written rules if it pleases their intentions. They violate their self-made international laws and ignore the will of the people if the people give referendum results that the elite does not want. They refuse to accept a No as a No. The strings get pulled in the background by levels of adminstration and by personnel that is completely beyond any public countercontrol, cannot be voted in or out. Backroom deals.

And, unforgettable, this evergreen: "We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back." - Juncker, 1999.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Shut up and hail our Führerin!

Quail Merkel !

And Attila the hen (May)

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

He judges it by its paperform, by its written self-description and how it wants to be seen. I judge it by its actual habits, practices and results.

I have already proved you wrong. I do hate this tennis-like posting.
It is really quite transparent, if only people would just look themselves instead of spreading tales of hearsay.
But it is so much easier to claim something, because you well know that all hear the big-mouthed claim, but no one listens to the boring fact that answers it.

[...] the real decision making is completely outside any countercontrol, but is done behind locked doors by the heads of states - [...] They violate their self-made international laws and ignore the will of the people [...] They refuse to accept a No as a No. [...]The strings get pulled in the background [..] beyond any public countercontrol, cannot be voted in or out. Backroom deals.

Ah yes, all those conspiracies. Bovine scatology.

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.de/201...ts-closed.html

"Closed reading rooms are an exception to generally open meetings and discussions of the European Parliament. This practice emerged with the introduction of rules on EU official secrets and specifically the Interinstitutional Agreement of 2002 between the European Parliament and the Council concerning European Parliament’s access to sensitive information in the field of security and defence policy" a.s.o., and all members agreed to that.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...A32002Q1130(01)

Yes i know, no one will read those boring facts. It's all fake news anyway as long it's not from Breitbart, or the Sun.

And, unforgettable, this evergreen: "We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back." - Juncker, 1999.

Out of context and 18 years old, but I give you that. Juncker is an !"§$%&%!!! and needs replacement. ASAP.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I have already proved you wrong. I do hate this tennis-like posting.
It is really quite transparent, if only people would just look themselves instead of spreading tales of hearsay.
But it is so much easier to claim something, because you well know that all hear the big-mouthed claim, but no one listens to the boring fact that answers it.

Do not hold me responsible if you just beleive official propaganda and paper whilwe ignoring the many historic acts where the EU just broke, violated, bent, ignored what it has written in these papers. I just give the two most obvious exmaples: the many violations of Euro-related policies and the prohibition of direct or indirect debt financing between states; and the backroom deal that bypassed the legally binding referendum results over the EU constitution in two natiosn, and send a third rejecting nation voting again. But there are so many everyday laws beign proposed and made by lobbying that should have no access inBrussel that I do not make a complete list: it would be so long that it never could be considered to be complete. Brussel longtime observers and insiders say the relation between lobbyists and members of the EU "parliament" is in the range of 40:1 to 60:1.

But go ahead, dream your dream of a better world. Because it is written.

Ah yes, all those conspiracies. Bovine scatology.

Du bist zu leichtgläubig, nur weil etwas offiziell verlautbart wurde. Right the kind of servile and believing citizen that the EU, and the national governments as well, want. Rest assured, attepts to make "unjustified criticism of the EU" a punishable crime, are already under way since years, and slowly advance, every year a bit more. With the EU of course defining what is unjustified, and what not.

It as like this in the GDR as well. And since everybody knew that the party was always right, there was no criticsm needed. Problem solved.

Seen that way it is no surprise that especially Germans feel so very much at home in the EU.

[Eichhörnchen]

"Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da... da-da-da-da-da-dada"

[Vatis1982]

Do you want my opinion as a Greek?
Well most of EU citizens believe that Greece took all their money just to spend them like a sailor of a sub after 6 months patrol.
We(citizens) believe that our governments the last 30 years took all the money that EU gave to Greece just for themselves.(half true)
Our current government tries to pay all that but without struggling all of us(citizens).
EU(Now German rule) and IMF tries to take everything now without thinking of the people.
That's why most of us believe Angela Merkel's government (especially Soible) is a heartless and cruel .....bleep.
Everybody says pay pay pay without leaving us to breathe a bit.
My opinion is that the world is again in turmoil.
When governments start to think only for money and political power a World War is imminent.Let's hope that will not happen to us too like those people 70 years ago.
We people of all the world must change the way we vote.(thinking)
First we must think what kind of world do we want to live in.
Sometimes i feel that human kind never learns the lessons of the past.