Politics makes us mean and dumb

[Skybird]

I seem to vaguely recall either you or somebody else years ago already said that on the first quote. However, it gets allways attributed to him, both quotes, not just on internet quotation sites, but in print media and books as well.

So for the time being, I keep it simple and pragmatic, and do like others do as well. Both quotes by Benjamin Franklin, therefore. To claim the opposite all of a sudden would not be believed by anyone anyway LOL. And if they are not by him indeed, at least their content is like that they could as well have been said or written by him.

I had just one book about Franklin, but it probably drowned in the flood we had three years ago, together with a good other share of my library. At least I cannot find it anymore since then...

[Sailor Steve]

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2181646/posts

"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. But you have to catch it yourself."
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...l_inaccuracies

Just because everyone on the internet repeats something doesn't make it so. Nor does saying something in a book. A careful search of Franklin's papers reveals that he never wrote anything like either one of those quotes. No one who parrots those quotes (and many others) ever gives an actual attribution ("Letter to so-and-so, such-and-such date"). It's a game played by political hacks who want someone important to back up their own beliefs. It's called "cheating" and "lying". I don't think you're cheating or lying, but I do think quoting the meme without checking on it is lazy at the very least. It only takes a minute to check a quote. To defend that laziness with the comment "no one would believe it anyway" is even worse. The truth is the truth, whether anyone believes it or not.

And if they are not by him indeed, at least their content is like that they could as well have been said or written by him

Maybe the first one, but the comment on the Constitution misses the fact that it says nothing about "The Pursuit of Happiness". That is the Declaration of Independence. Franklin, who helped draft both, and signed both, would know the difference.

[Skybird]

While techncially you are right, I must admit I think there are more important things than to become this pedantic about such famous quotations that are this popular that even in books by best-intending professional authors on for exmaple history or politics and history give these quotes time and again. I really do not know how often I have stumbled over them by now, onine as well as in books. VERY often.

Too judge whether such claimed popular quotes by somebody are fakes or are real, requires an intimate expertise on the author in question. And that is kind of specialised knowledge that most people simply do not have, and do not care to get, for acchieving it means too much investment for them (time), while providing too litte benefits. So there we have it again: "rational ignorrance" that I already mentioned above. Both "quotes" have a meaning and a message, and I think it matches what I wanted to hint, and I also think they meet the general direrciton of thought in Franklin. At least as long as all the other things I read about him and quotes I read that are claimed to be by him, maybe even his full biography, have not been a fake as well.

Relax, good man. No real harm was done, nor intended. And I fear you will need to live with that these quotes will be continued to be attributed to Franklin by many, many people, right or wrongly so.

Heck, not even the Bible's originality is beyond doubt in so many passages that might or might not be correctly translated. Not even the Quran is original. LOL.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

While techncially you are right, I must admit I think there are more important things than to become this pedantic about such famous quotations that are this popular that even in books by best-intending professional authors on for exmaple history or politics and history give these quotes time and again. I really do not know how often I have stumbled over them by now, onine as well as in books. VERY often.

So I can misquote anybody I like, and justify it because to point out that it's wrong is pedantic? It's okay to say something is commonly attributed to somebody but is not confirmed, but to say somebody said it is to state that it is true. And if it's not?

Too judge whether such claimed popular quotes by somebody are fakes or are real, requires an intimate expertise on the author in question.

Not really. I treasure history the way you treasure psychology. I double-check every quote I use. It's not that hard to do.

And that is kind of specialised knowledge that most people simply do not have, and do not care to get, for acchieving it means too much investment for them (time), while providing too litte benefits.

Five minutes is all it takes, and the benefit is telling the truth from a lie. Are you saying the truth isn't important to you?

So there we have it again: "rational ignorrance" that I already mentioned above. Both "quotes" have a meaning and a message, and I think it matches what I wanted to hint, and I also think they meet the general direrciton of thought in Franklin. At least as long as all the other things I read about him and quotes I read that are claimed to be by him, maybe even his full biography, have not been a fake as well.

Benjamin Franklin was a very famous man, even in his own time. Every single quote has been checked and rechecked. The same is true of every very famous man. All it takes is a couple of minutes to look for the checking that's already been done. To misquote somebody is understandable, especially when so many have deliberately done so in an attempt to make someone famous seem to support their cause. To attempt to justify it by saying "he could have said it" is a deliberate distortion of the truth. You like to point out when others are wrong. Are you trying to misdirect the facts when you are shown to be the same?

Relax, good man. No real harm was done, nor intended. And I fear you will need to live with that these quotes will be continued to be attributed to Franklin by many, many people, right or wrongly so.

And I will continue to point out that it is wrongly so. And the ones who use them will continue to try to justify their wrongness.

Heck, not even the Bible's originality is beyond doubt in so many passages that might or might not be correctly translated. Not even the Quran is original. LOL.

Yes and no. There are enough experts who know their stuff to translate the Bible correctly. The problem is that so many of the original manuscripts disagree with each other, and none of them are early enough to be truly "original". On the other hand if someone misquotes the Bible you can bet that plenty of others will point it out.

[Skybird]

Steve, I am only saying that I think you simply spend a bit too much attention to somethign that you will not change anyway. Many people will continue to attribute said two quotes to Franklin, no matter what those dudes in that other forum said. It happe, you don't like it, but it happens nevertheless. Its not as if any real serious consequences are caused by this. Its harmless. it does not matter that much. No information damage has been done. Those two statements are good ones. Some say the author is named wrong, okay. So be it. i do not know - the ultimate evidence for the opposite the links you posted do not provide, too, btw. Just some people claiming somethingthign diffefebt, and hinting by wuotes from some other people that the two sentences could as well be collected from the context of words by somebody else. Just saying - I really dont want to start a fight here.

Compare this to me living in a sociocultural habitat where 99,9% of the population seriously believes that this political freak show event around them indeed is correctly attributed to what ancient Greek democracy was about - there you have a big distortion of things, and according consequences! What e call demicracy today, to the old Greeks would have appeared as tyranny! Still we call Greek the cradle of our modern poltical order!?

I think my suffering is much bigger than yours!

BTW, I do not "treasure" psychology the way you seem to think I do. Way too much stupid babbling in there, if you ask me, way too much. But not all is bad, and so some stuff I keep on mind. I have voluntarily given up this branch, and not even for one day I have ever regretted to do so - what does this tell you?

I would share your pedantry on this quoting thing if I would write an academic paper, or somethign meant for professional publishing, a book. There are academic standards and rules for correct quoting: footnotes, sources to be given and colelcted in an appendix, quoting in correct context, and so forth, not to mention: checking the copyrights. But hey, this is a bar, no university, so enjoy the jokes and the cold beer. Life can be easy.

[ikalugin]

"The problem of the Internet is that noone verifies the origin of quotes" - Joseph Stalin.

[Rockstar]

Ben Carson