US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Silent majority sir. Always been there. Silent. Did not happen overnight. So how is it concerning? Did the world end over the past 100 years from these silent folks?

The world might not have, but millions of people did. With a silent nod that 'yes, those people are different, so it doesn't matter what happens to them', or 'Well, at least it isn't me'.
When a society gets to the point when it is willing to accept prejudice against people because of their race, gender, age, sexuality or religious choices, then it is the first step on a path that leads to camps and ovens.
As the popular saying goes "It didn't start with gas chambers, it started with politicians dividing the people with 'us vs them'. It started with intolerance and hate speech, and when people stopped caring, became desensitized and turned a blind eye."

We're better than that, aren't we?

Aren't we?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The world might not have, but millions of people did. With a silent nod that 'yes, those people are different, so it doesn't matter what happens to them', or 'Well, at least it isn't me'.
When a society gets to the point when it is willing to accept prejudice against people because of their race, gender, age, sexuality or religious choices, then it is the first step on a path that leads to camps and ovens.
As the popular saying goes "It didn't start with gas chambers, it started with politicians dividing the people with 'us vs them'. It started with intolerance and hate speech, and when people stopped caring, became desensitized and turned a blind eye."

We're better than that, aren't we?

Aren't we?

Be careful about buying into the myth of the "silent majority".

[Onkel Neal]

No, protesting is fine. But the protests in the news are full of profane extremists who engage in criminal activities.

Plus, it's hard to get decent service at Subway when they are so understaffed.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

No, protesting is fine. But the protests in the news are full of profane extremists who engage in criminal activities.

Plus, it's hard to get decent service at Subway when they are so understaffed.

And Starbucks.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Steve, I am judging him due to what he did already, which to me is more than enough for a very final judgement, not what I imagine he might do - that would be rather baseless.

Your judgment is based on what you are certain he's going to do, based on what he has said he will do. What exactly has he done so far? He's done a couple of things that people are already arguing about, which is fine. But if you already hated him before he took office, then you hate is indeed based on what you think he's going to do, because at that time he hadn't done anything.

[Wait a second, you just put it as if anyone who really hates him doesn't have a good reason. How so? Again, me? He gave me all the reasons to make up my opinion.[/quote]
If you go by the simplest dictionary definition, i.e. strong dislike, disgust, loathing, then I could be accused of hate. That said, to me "hate" involves a deeper emotional attachment: virulent dislike, believing the subject has no values at all, and must be eliminated at all costs. That may not be how you feel, but that's the way it looks to this outsider. I don't like Trump, and didn't want him for my president, but I didn't want Hillary either, and nobody offered what I thought was a reasonable alternative. People hate Trump "because he's a monster". Hillary? "She's a crook of the worst sort". Bernie Sanders? "He's a communist." Yes, you do have good reasons to dislike Trump, and to not trust him. But hate? That's a very strong word. To my mind there is never a reason to hate.

Yes, there are bandwagon haters on both sides who just preach to the choir, but in trumps case I easily see why many speak of actual hate and do see the venom as warranted, as you put it.

I think that anyone who shows that kind of vitriol is, as you put it, a "bandwagon hater". The people I see, hear and read who hate Trump would do son no matter what he says or does.It's the same on the other side, no matter who is in power. Trump is evil? Well, Obama was more so. Don't like Obama? Well, look at how bad Bush was. You've seen it here. Don't like Trump. You're a flaming Liberal. Don't like Obama? You're a Right-Wing reactionary. Believe everyone should have access to health care? Your a socialist. Believe you shouldn't have to pay for someone else's health care? You don't care about anyone but yourself. Even if it's true, just shouting out hate does no good at all. It would be a lot better if people figured out that the Other Side actually has reasons for feeling the way they do, and might have something to offer. "I'm right and you're stupid" never helps. Never.

I think you're right that the right would not have made such a big deal out if it if November would have been different, you know why? Because it would have been baseless compared to trump.
Trump is a whole new level of ugly, that's why people are so extremely ob edge. I don't share your opinion that it's all just "haters gonna hate".

As I said, there is plenty of reason to dislike and distrust the man. On the other hand, hate blinds the hater to everything else but his hate. While I do think you make some valid points, how can I (or you, for that matter) be sure that you are using reason at all? What can actually be done? I say this to the other side too. Their support of Trump is guided by their hatred for Hillary. Whatever Trump does, nothing could be as bad as what she would have done. Are they also right? Is one side's hate somehow "better" than the other's? I don't see it.

"people"? So again everyone with a strong anti trump opinion like me, do I understand you right?

No. Having a strong opinion for or against anyone or anything is understandable. The problem arises when the opinion becomes "fact". One of my defining moments was when I realized that I don't know anything. That got me thinking that nobody else does either. Being absolutely certain of something closes your mind to any thought that you might be wrong and reinforces your opinions, often falsely.

While I see your core message and agree, I do not think that it's just "hate for the reason of hate" or whatever. For me, these strong feelings are very easy to understand in trumps case.

If it's dislike, I agree. If it's hate, then it's relying on emotion and not reason. The telltale sign is in the way it's expressed. Discussing differing opinions is how things get resolved, or at least understood. Dismissing differing opinions because yours is the one that's right is closing the door to any kind of real understanding. I see far more of the latter than the former, especially among the "hate" that's going around right now. There is no discussion there, and no reason, only hate.

Ok honestly. What is left to discuss?

Lots of things, not that anything discussed here will change the world.

I said, don't do it. "Do not make this mistake and vote trump, and here is why."

And I didn't. The people who did think that his winning is a good thing. Are they wrong? Maybe. Are they crazy? Maybe. Are they right? Again, maybe, and that's the problem as I see it. Unless you have absolute proof that you are right, then your opinion is no better than mine or anybody else's. If it turns out you're right then we'll do something about it, if there's time (of course there's always the danger that there won't be, but we've lived with that my whole life). If you're wrong, and he does some good things, will you be able to admit it? If they're wrong, will they? Some will, and some won't, and we have both of those represented here at SubSim.

Now we have trump but I am expected to deliver a solution because I'm against him?

Not at all. I don't expect that anyone here has any real solutions, and even if they did, who would listen to this tiny corner of the universe? I just find it more useful to discuss the possibilities than to declare that I'm right and you're an idiot for disagreeing with me.

Sorry, no. And it has nothing to do with me being right and whoever else is stupid, I do not hold such extreme views usually, however, in a clear case like trump - I do not see why I wouldn't be allowed to.

And you should be allowed to. It's not the opinion so much as the expression of it. Those on the opposite side believe just as strongly that they are right, and how do you know for a fact that they aren't? That goes for them too. The biggest problem I see is people who are convinced they are right, no matter what the subject. Rather than get together and explore the possibilities it always seems easier to dismiss those who disagree as being wrong, and ridiculing them for believing something so obviously stupid.

But what if they're right after all?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

It isn't slanted right. The government at this time is. The American populace has remained fairly constant. Simplifying things, it is roughly 20 extreme right, 20 percent extreme left and the remaining 60 percent somewhere in the middle. Here you see mostly right-leaning individuals, but it really isn't an accurate sampling of America, as the SubSim demographic is almost entirely older, white and male.

Over the last few decades those on the extreme right have been muted. Society has disregarded them and moved without their consent. Trump's ascension to power has given those people a voice. It is like taking the lid off the pressure cooker. They're a lot louder than there were before. This is agitating those on the left, resulting in this back and forth. That conflict is pulling people from the middle to either side.

The end result is that Americans are generally not happy with each other. We've had hate crimes in our community, and I can never remember that happening. They've even been directed at my own family, which is why we're leaving. But in any case while the government is pursuing a right-wing agenda, the people are not a homogeneous political block. I don't think that this is the dawn of a century worth of isolationist policy from the US. A lot of people are already tired of the Trump administration.

I guess that's true, I keep basing my view on America based upon this forum and that's pretty wrong. To be fair though it's not just the current US administration that's let that pressure cooker go, it's happening everywhere, and I don't know where you're moving to but I hope that it's better than where you are...but I don't know where it isn't happening. France, the Netherlands, Poland, the UK, Germany, Hungary, Austria, the far-right are on the rise everywhere, feeding off each others victories and current crisis's in order to achieve their populist goals.
I don't like where this is all going.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

No, protesting is fine. But the protests in the news are full of profane extremists who engage in criminal activities.

What about the ones that aren't in the news? Don't you think there might be some correlation between violent protests and media coverage?

Plus, it's hard to get decent service at Subway when they are so understaffed.

Meaning?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The world might not have, but millions of people did. With a silent nod that 'yes, those people are different, so it doesn't matter what happens to them', or 'Well, at least it isn't me'.
When a society gets to the point when it is willing to accept prejudice against people because of their race, gender, age, sexuality or religious choices, then it is the first step on a path that leads to camps and ovens.
As the popular saying goes "It didn't start with gas chambers, it started with politicians dividing the people with 'us vs them'. It started with intolerance and hate speech, and when people stopped caring, became desensitized and turned a blind eye."

We're better than that, aren't we?

Aren't we?

Can you cite anything(paper/website) that states these people(silent majority) do not care and are hate filled? Please don't take me to some goose stepping website with skin heads. These are not those people who are the silent majority. Although Hillary/Dems/CNN would have you believe so. Deplorables all of them.

You have simply classed everyone who is the silent majority into nothing but a hate filled class of people.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Yes, yes, I am the scum of the Earth and should be executed. Maybe if Bannon gets his way. Maybe.

Are good old Senator Byrd got his way back in his day.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

It isn't slanted right. The government at this time is. The American populace has remained fairly constant. Simplifying things, it is roughly 20 extreme right, 20 percent extreme left and the remaining 60 percent somewhere in the middle. Here you see mostly right-leaning individuals, but it really isn't an accurate sampling of America, as the SubSim demographic is almost entirely older, white and male.

Over the last few decades those on the extreme right have been muted. Society has disregarded them and moved without their consent. Trump's ascension to power has given those people a voice. It is like taking the lid off the pressure cooker. They're a lot louder than there were before. This is agitating those on the left, resulting in this back and forth. That conflict is pulling people from the middle to either side.

The end result is that Americans are generally not happy with each other. We've had hate crimes in our community, and I can never remember that happening. They've even been directed at my own family, which is why we're leaving. But in any case while the government is pursuing a right-wing agenda, the people are not a homogeneous political block. I don't think that this is the dawn of a century worth of isolationist policy from the US. A lot of people are already tired of the Trump administration.

I agree with all but the last sentence. Unless you have some hard evidence of people tired of Trump already one can not just throw that out there.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Can you cite anything(paper/website) that states these people(silent majority) do not care and are hate filled? Please don't take me to some goose stepping website with skin heads. These are not those people who are the silent majority. Although Hillary/Dems/CNN would have you believe so. Deplorables all of them.

You have simply classed everyone who is the silent majority into nothing but a hate filled class of people.

Well, who are the silent majority? Are these silent majority in agreement with the divisive tactics of the Trump campaign? Do they feel that it is fine to grab a woman 'by her pussy'? Or did they buy into the old adage of 'Making X Great Again' which every populist leader has used a version of because it's an easy sell.
Or was it purely a vote against 'Emails' Clinton? Because if so it comes across as cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

hard evidence of people tired of Trump already one can not just throw that out there.

http://www.areyousorryyet.com/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-vote-election

http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/ga...-approval.aspx

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I guess that's true, I keep basing my view on America based upon this forum and that's pretty wrong. To be fair though it's not just the current US administration that's let that pressure cooker go, it's happening everywhere, and I don't know where you're moving to but I hope that it's better than where you are...but I don't know where it isn't happening. France, the Netherlands, Poland, the UK, Germany, Hungary, Austria, the far-right are on the rise everywhere, feeding off each others victories and current crisis's in order to achieve their populist goals.
I don't like where this is all going.

Yes, you're right in all accounts. It's nuts out there right now. It has effected us personally. Long story inbound.

There is a relatively small group of Cambodian immigrants (refugees) that build a Buddhist temple a few years back. About a week after the election it is vandalized with all kinds of white supremacist graffiti and MAGA signs. So my wife, kids and myself go and do the neighborly and decent thing and help the monks clean things up. A few hours into the cleaning and a bunch of men show up and start hurling racial epithets at those of us cleaning. While very shocked, we didn't think anything of it at the time other than "wow what an awful bunch of people".

A few days later I am heading out to work. I put my garage door down to see an enormous yellow star with the word "soon". How did these people know where we live? Moreover, how did they know that my wife is Jewish? She doesn't even practice. We reported it to local law enforcement, and they shrugged it off saying that they'd, and this is a direct quote, "maybe mention something about it to the FBI". Really? Maybe mention it?

Fast forward to mid December. An envelope comes in the mail. Photos of my daughters leaving school. That was it. If people want their agenda so bad that they are willing to threaten our children then we are not going to stand and fight. While we went to the protests in DC, we have been also pursuing immigration.

The process has been easier for us than it will be for others. My wife, as you know, is a surgeon so having hospitals fight over you is a great way to push through the process. The suburbs of Perth will be our new home. We're now in the stage of closing up our affairs here, which is a lengthy and complicated process. She'll be heading over at the end of April and my daughters and I will join her after the school year ends.

I never thought that I would be a refugee fleeing the United States. It saddens me to leave my family's home, but we'll be ringing in 2018 in a new land with new hope. And, to circle back to your point, we chose Australia because so much of the far right that is rising is centered in Europe and North America. Australia will not be perfect or free from people like that, but the literal other side of the world seemed as good a place as any to try and start anew.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well, who are the silent majority? Are these silent majority in agreement with the divisive tactics of the Trump campaign? Do they feel that it is fine to grab a woman 'by her pussy'? Or did they buy into the old adage of 'Making X Great Again' which every populist leader has used a version of because it's an easy sell.
Or was it purely a vote against 'Emails' Clinton? Because if so it comes across as cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Oh for Heaven sake. Are people OK with Clinton getting a BJ in the oval office. Are they ok with the long list of women who were sexually molested by Clinton. Will I guess so as he stayed in the limelight long after his presidency. The holier than though cramp is getting old.

Stop chiming in on Trump. The White House already had a sexual deviant. Nothing new. Widely accepted. Again...nothing new.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I agree with all but the last sentence. Unless you have some hard evidence of people tired of Trump already one can not just throw that out there.

Turn on your television. Hit up the internet. Read even this very thread.