The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar - Page 166

Jimbuna · 01-07-17, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

And now back to what this thread is about-terrorism

If I heard what have been said about this shooting in Fort Lauderdales airport, it is terror.

The shooter walked around and fired his gun at people completely random

Markus

My lad was in the area at the time but thankfully not at the airport.

ikalugin · 01-07-17, 10:54 AM

Apparently Turkish forces are leaving Iraq now.

Skybird · 01-12-17, 07:38 AM

IS delivered a smashing defeat to the Turks - and to the German Panzer myth.

Up to 10 Leopard 2A4s should have been destroyed in a battle when IS fighters used Kornet missiles against the rear and the the flanks of the Turkish Leos, apparently in some kind of urban or village environment. Experts also question the operational tactics of the Turks and called the unit's leadership skills "incompetent".

Leopard 2A4 is a by now outdated version of the Leo-2, lacking reactive or additional wedge armour, also has no missile-defeating distance defence against incoming warheads. By today's standards it is by far not the first line of MBTs anymore. Still, if you lose so many tanks in short time in this fashion, the thing has "leadership failure" written all over it.

Still, the damage to the reputation of the Leopard hurts. Until here it had a clean record. When it got damaged in combat or got hit by mines, crews all survived (Canadians in Afghanistan).

Oberon · 01-12-17, 07:58 AM

Ouch!

That is devastating, the 2A4s might not be the most modern version of the Leo 2 but they're still pretty up the list. Does the A7 have any active CM gear? Like the Israeli Trophy? Definitely something to put on the Leo 3 design requirements I think.

Still, at least out of this mess there will be some good if German inspectors can get a hold of the wrecks and identify weak points and design improvements to combat the Spriggan.

August · 01-12-17, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ouch!

That is devastating, the 2A4s might not be the most modern version of the Leo 2 but they're still pretty up the list. Does the A7 have any active CM gear? Like the Israeli Trophy? Definitely something to put on the Leo 3 design requirements I think.

Still, at least out of this mess there will be some good if German inspectors can get a hold of the wrecks and identify weak points and design improvements to combat the Spriggan.

I think the biggest weak point here was the lack of Infantry support. No matter how advanced an AFV is it is vulnerable without it, especially in urban locations.

Skybird · 01-12-17, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I think the biggest weak point here was the lack of Infantry support. No matter how advanced an AFV is it is vulnerable without it, especially in urban locations.

Yes, apparently incompetent leadership is the main problem in this mess.

IS also learned to adapt to the Leo's frontal strength - all kills should derive from shots into the rear and the flanks.

Skybird · 01-12-17, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Does the A7 have any active CM gear?

Not that I recall now, both the A7 and the A7+ which is the version specialising in urban warfare seem to have any active CM. Their massive improvements over the A6 all are in the more "conventional" field. Which I think is a mistake.

The A4, which now got a beating, however is more than 30 years old now. First versions of the Kornet were fielded in the very late 90s.

Relatively expensive, for an ATGM. Didnt't they say IS is under financial pressure?

Catfish · 01-12-17, 09:16 AM

You cannot build a tank which is not vulnerable against missiles, unless it has so much armour it cannot be used in rough terrain. The key for all military equipment in the wild is building it as light as possible.

Tanks in a street. Hide in a house, let them pass, move into the street and fire a missile at the rear. Not much chance for any tank, but then who lets tanks patrol villages without infantry?!

Wondering what the US M1 tank will be able to do, in the baltic. The gas turbine with its 500 degrees Celsius exhaust temperature will light it up at ten miles for any infrared equipment, and it has a terrible fuel consumption.

Schroeder · 01-12-17, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

but then who lets tanks patrol villages without infantry?!

Exactly. That's why tanks and mechanized infantry work closely together in the Bundeswehr.
Sending in tanks into urban terrain with a missile equipped enemy is asking for casualties.

Maybe Mr Erdoghans purge of key military personnel works just as well for him now as Stalin's did back in the day...

Skybird · 01-12-17, 09:27 AM

It also has superior TIS and superior magnification optics for gunners and TC (="better eyes"), is more silent (high frequency does not carry as far through the air as low rumbling Diesel), it has a serious punch to deliver, better secondary armament than the Leo, and is very well protected. Its not all bad with american tanks, you know.

There is a reason why comparable generations of Abrams and Leopard 2 are seen usually as roughly equal. Plus American crews often have real combat experience, and their command staff is excellently trained.

Skybird · 01-12-17, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Exactly. That's why tanks and mechanized infantry work closely together in the Bundeswehr.
Sending in tanks into urban terrain with a missile equipped enemy is asking for casualties.

Maybe Mr Erdoghans purge of key military personnel works just as well for him now as Stalin's did back in the day...

My idea is that some big-egoed fame-craving local commander wanted to enforce a victorious advance or capture in a fashion and with insufficient resources so that this mission necessarily must end as a still birth. I have seen such guys there, full of their own egoes - and thus the worst enemy of their subordinate troops.

But too little details of the fight are known in public.

Jimbuna · 01-12-17, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

IS delivered a smashing defeat to the Turks - and to the German Panzer myth.

That's the Abrams and Leopards we know of being destroyed in battle (not necessarily the latest varianta) so I'm wondering if the Challenger would have fared any better under similar/identical circumstances....probably not

Oberon · 01-14-17, 01:41 PM

A walk through Aleppo:

https://twitter.com/i/moments/820283823321649153

Jimbuna · 01-15-17, 10:26 AM

A pyrrhic victory if ever I saw one.

Skybird · 01-15-17, 04:58 PM

Why pyrric victory? The objective never was to "save" the city in any meaning of the term, but to drive out the enemy. And the enemy is gone. That battle has seen a total victory with the victor now doing as he pleases, or not?

Interesting that Putin has started to reduce Russian forces in Syria, indicating he does not further want to support any military fancy or war by Assad (who recently said he wants to regain all of Syria, which currently is questionable - and cannot be done without Russian aid). It seems to me Putin plans to keep Syria open ended and thus: instabile, so that he always will be needed by the regime, and he always can fall back to playing the Syria card, also against the West. If it were about securing a military victory in the war, the next logical step would have been to now forcus all military wrath on Idlib, the last remaining major stronghold of the various rebel groups. Assad probbaly could not do that alone without havign his forces bogging down, and Russia seems to currently not being in the mood to head for Idlib, so I think the conclusion is evident.

As the chief of the security conference in Munich recently said: we in the West, especially Europe, and here especially Germany, must stop thinking, claiming and saying that "there cannot be a military solution", something that especially German diplomats love to say over and over and over again. There can, Russia repeatedly demonstrated that now. Even if the wanted solution is an open ended solution, and is intended destabilization. The Kremlin got what it wants - with military means. Period. Like in the Ukraine and the Crimean peninsula as well.

Brute force can be very convincing, no matter whether morally okay or not.

01-07-17, 10:54 AM	#2477
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Apparently Turkish forces are leaving Iraq now. __________________ Grumpy as always.

01-12-17, 07:38 AM	#2478
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,732 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	IS delivered a smashing defeat to the Turks - and to the German Panzer myth. Up to 10 Leopard 2A4s should have been destroyed in a battle when IS fighters used Kornet missiles against the rear and the the flanks of the Turkish Leos, apparently in some kind of urban or village environment. Experts also question the operational tactics of the Turks and called the unit's leadership skills "incompetent". Leopard 2A4 is a by now outdated version of the Leo-2, lacking reactive or additional wedge armour, also has no missile-defeating distance defence against incoming warheads. By today's standards it is by far not the first line of MBTs anymore. Still, if you lose so many tanks in short time in this fashion, the thing has "leadership failure" written all over it. Still, the damage to the reputation of the Leopard hurts. Until here it had a clean record. When it got damaged in combat or got hit by mines, crews all survived (Canadians in Afghanistan). __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-12-17, 09:16 AM	#2483
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,811 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	You cannot build a tank which is not vulnerable against missiles, unless it has so much armour it cannot be used in rough terrain. The key for all military equipment in the wild is building it as light as possible. Tanks in a street. Hide in a house, let them pass, move into the street and fire a missile at the rear. Not much chance for any tank, but then who lets tanks patrol villages without infantry?! Wondering what the US M1 tank will be able to do, in the baltic. The gas turbine with its 500 degrees Celsius exhaust temperature will light it up at ten miles for any infrared equipment, and it has a terrible fuel consumption. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

01-12-17, 09:27 AM	#2485
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,732 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It also has superior TIS and superior magnification optics for gunners and TC (="better eyes"), is more silent (high frequency does not carry as far through the air as low rumbling Diesel), it has a serious punch to deliver, better secondary armament than the Leo, and is very well protected. Its not all bad with american tanks, you know. There is a reason why comparable generations of Abrams and Leopard 2 are seen usually as roughly equal. Plus American crews often have real combat experience, and their command staff is excellently trained. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-15-17, 10:26 AM	#2489
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,112 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	A pyrrhic victory if ever I saw one. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-12-17, 07:58 AM	#2479
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Ouch! That is devastating, the 2A4s might not be the most modern version of the Leo 2 but they're still pretty up the list. Does the A7 have any active CM gear? Like the Israeli Trophy? Definitely something to put on the Leo 3 design requirements I think. Still, at least out of this mess there will be some good if German inspectors can get a hold of the wrecks and identify weak points and design improvements to combat the Spriggan.

01-14-17, 01:41 PM	#2488
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	A walk through Aleppo: https://twitter.com/i/moments/820283823321649153

01-15-17, 04:58 PM	#2490
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,732 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Why pyrric victory? The objective never was to "save" the city in any meaning of the term, but to drive out the enemy. And the enemy is gone. That battle has seen a total victory with the victor now doing as he pleases, or not? Interesting that Putin has started to reduce Russian forces in Syria, indicating he does not further want to support any military fancy or war by Assad (who recently said he wants to regain *all* of Syria, which currently is questionable - and cannot be done without Russian aid). It seems to me Putin plans to keep Syria open ended and thus: instabile, so that he always will be needed by the regime, and he always can fall back to playing the Syria card, also against the West. If it were about securing a military victory in the war, the next logical step would have been to now forcus all military wrath on Idlib, the last remaining major stronghold of the various rebel groups. Assad probbaly could not do that alone without havign his forces bogging down, and Russia seems to currently not being in the mood to head for Idlib, so I think the conclusion is evident. As the chief of the security conference in Munich recently said: we in the West, especially Europe, and here especially Germany, must stop thinking, claiming and saying that "there cannot be a military solution", something that especially German diplomats love to say over and over and over again. There can, Russia repeatedly demonstrated that now. Even if the wanted solution is an open ended solution, and is intended destabilization. The Kremlin got what it wants - with military means. Period. Like in the Ukraine and the Crimean peninsula as well. Brute force can be very convincing, no matter whether morally okay or not. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.