Why Did America Stop Building the Best (and Most Dangerous Sub)

[Onkel Neal]

Why Did America Stop Building the Best (and Most Dangerous Sub)

Despite their advanced, world-beating capabilities, only three Seawolf-class submarines were ever built, doomed by the end of the Cold War and escalating costs. Fast, deep diving and bristling with weapons, the U.S. Navy’s Seawolf subs are more relevant than ever in the face of Russian and Chinese naval ambitions.

The U.S. submarine force experience a crash dive in numbers. The force went from an all-time high of 102 attack submarines in 1987 to just fifty-seven submarines in 1999. This decline wasn’t just limited to submarines, although the sub force was hurt the most—during the same period, the U.S. Navy ship force declined from 594 ships to just 337.

[yubba]

I guess it was a toss up between that and the Virginia Class,, If you were to choose which one.????

[Platapus]

What do we need these new subs for that the existing subs can't do? These are pretty expensive to build and operate.

What could that money be used for instead, and would that have a better ROI?

[Catfish]

It's always the money.

[Oberon]

Sub & Naval Discussions?

[Rockstar]

Maybe advances in listening stations, satellite/elint technology has made it nearly impossible for an underwater adversary to get around unnoticed these days. maybe subs are going the way of the battleship or maybe there just isnt enough bad guys to chase.

[ikalugin]

Sea Wolfs are like F22As - excelent in their narrow role but too specialised in it to do other tasks well.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

It's always the money.

Yep, most probably.

[Rockstar]

Why spend money on a sub which must give away its location to deliver a harpoon. When money spent on hyper sonic missle technology could deliver a package anywhere in the world within an hour of placing your order.

[Onkel Neal]

From what I've read elsewhere, in the end the Virginia class ended up costing about the same as the Seawolf subs were coming in at.

What do we need these new subs for that the existing subs can't do? These are pretty expensive to build and operate.

The Navy needs something to replace the 688 class, they won't last forever.

Would the US Navy be adequate with no submarines? In peacetime, sure. As long as we are sure another war against a formidable power will not occur, we are ok. Otherwise....

[ikalugin]

Even in peacetime you want subs for stuff like special forces delivery and intel gathering, not to mention sanitising your SSBN patrol areas.

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, I agree subs are still the best ICBM platform.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Maybe advances in listening stations, satellite/elint technology has made it nearly impossible for an underwater adversary to get around unnoticed these days. maybe subs are going the way of the battleship or maybe there just isnt enough bad guys to chase.

Yeah, maybe that's it. Submarines are obsolete, we just don't realize it yet. I certainly agree that you could get a lot more bang for $2 billion using drones and missiles.

[Aktungbby]

In order to better protect local shores and keep an eye on East End boaters, the Hamptons Police Department added a military surplus submarine to their fleet this week.
The decommissioned U.S. Navy Virginia-class submarine was taken out of service in 2013 and mothballed for nearly 18 months before ownership was transferred to the Hamptons Police Department.
“I want to emphasize that this submersible craft came at no cost to taxpayers,” Hamptons PD representative Larry Hirsch explains in a press release. “With the blessing of the Hamptons Municipal Board, we requested such a watercraft last year under a federal program to outfit local police departments with surplus military equipment.”
Aimed mainly at counter-narcotic and counter-terrorism operations, this military grade gear—such as heavily armored MRAP vehicles, automatic weapons and body armor—was initially handed out to police departments in border towns and those with serious crime problems. But the need has grown drastically around the country in recent years, and smaller departments in seemingly “safer” areas are getting in on the action.
“While the craft reached the end of its usefulness for the U.S. Navy, the civilian applications of this submersible are numerous,” Hirsch says in the statement. “You never know what’s out there and we’re here to protect the citizenry from the worst case scenario,” he added in a phone call Tuesday. “Imagine the horror people would experience if a large military craft passed beneath their boat or emerged from depths within view of the beach—we’re here to stop that from happening. This sub will make a strong statement about our power and might,” Hirsch continued. “The people want to know their police will do whatever it takes—whatever it takes—to maintain order and control,” he said. “They want to see us as an unstoppable force beyond the reach of sleazy criminals’ lawyers and legal loopholes.”
Named Jaws VIII by Hamptons PD, the submarine will be deployed to patrol the shoreline on weekends only leading up to Fourth of July, when patrols will be stepped up to seven days a week through Labor Day.
Hamptons PD marine patrol officers will be on the lookout for swimmers, surfers and boaters in distress, and will issue tickets to unlicensed operators of motorboats and to operators of all boats that are not carrying personal floatation devices. “We could even depth charge a large shark, should the need arise,” Hirsch said.
The submarine travels between 30 and 35 knots—or 56 to 65 kilometers an hour. It can travel almost the entire distance of the Hamptons’ southern shore in about 70 minutes.
Along with the submarine, Hamptons PD has recently acquired a “whole slew” of military equipment, Hirsch revealed. “As we speak, my men are doing various drills and practice engagements, including Free-for-All, Team Deathmatch, Mercenary Team Deathmatch, Headquarters, Capture the Flag, Team Tactical, Kill Confirmed and Search and Destroy scenarios,” he said.
Just days after announcing their acquisition of a decommissioned U.S. Navy Virginia-class submarine, Jaws VIII, the Hamptons Police Department has already used the military surplus craft to make an arrest.
In a daring mid-afternoon operation, the Hamptons Police Department Submarine Unit (HPDSU) responded to reports of an unruly group aboard a pleasure boat a few miles off the tip of Montauk. The boaters, who had been “blasting loud rap music,” drinking to excess and mooning nearby fishing vessels, were “utterly shocked” when confronted by the massive submarine, police said, noting that they surfaced directly in the boat’s path, making it impossible for the suspects to do anything but stop or crash.
“You should have seen it,” HPDSU Captain Buddy Covaleski said, recounting the arrest. “There’s this little boat loaded with like 20 people, and they basically came to a dead stop and stood there dumbfounded,” he said. “The driver was so stupefied he didn’t even think to put down his beer or toss the marijuana cigarette—or joint—in his hand,” Covaleski continued. “We had them dead to rights.”
The boaters were detained in the sub’s custom brig and booked with a bevy of charges, including boating under the influence, indecent exposure, harassment and possession of various controlled substances—2 grams of cocaine, a half-ounce of marijuana and four different unprescribed pharmaceuticals—along with several boating violations, such as failure to carry required safety equipment, overcrowding, reckless operation and failure to display validation sticker.
“It was terrifying,” the boat’s captain, Clint Bartholomew, said after his arraignment Friday morning. “Everything went dark as this huge, black shape emerged from the depths, and next thing you know, this dude is yelling at us through some kind of loudspeaker and waving his arms so I can see him up in that tower thing,” the captain said, adding, “I have to say, it was pretty cool riding back in that thing, especially being totally baked as I was, but I’ll definitely be following my boating Ps and Qs while that thing is out there.”
HPDSU towed the offending boat back to shore where it was impounded.

Perhaps all $ubs should B relegated to upscale police surplus!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Yes, I agree subs are still the best ICBM platform.




Yeah, maybe that's it. Submarines are obsolete, we just don't realize it yet. I certainly agree that you could get a lot more bang for $2 billion using drones and missiles.

They will become obsolete one day, but before that day, they have a role to serve, and that role will last longer than that of aircraft carrier groups.

In the end, there will be autonomous weapon and sensor platforms. Whether that will be a survivable scenario for mankind, remains to be seen. I have growing doubts, and many future-researching scientists as well. AI could very well one day replace mankind.

I sometimes think that the infrastructure of the internet as well as its conditioning influence on the behaviour of man are signs that a globe-embracing AI already is there, and is self-emerging now, like a dissipative structure in chaos theory. Which means: we do not have its attracotrs it forms itself by, its finals tatus under control. And there is where the big unknown, the big potential danger lies. What if this AI gains self awareness, self-maintainability - and decides mankind to be not needed, being imperfect, being even a risk?

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] What if this AI gains self awareness, self-maintainability - and decides mankind to be not needed, being imperfect, being even a risk?

If you do not even need a court order to let a drone kill someone (and his/her innocent companions as collateral damage), why bother with humans deciding about it at all anymore? Only the first step though. If the AI really becomes intelligent, the first logical step would be to get rid of their 'creators'.