[WIP] Lighthouses mod

[gap]

Originally Posted by Kendras

I prefer in .dat files.

Okay, you will need to wait until I find my working files and Import them into a dat file them.
I usually work with medium to high size textures and I scale them down for usage in game. What would be an acceptable texture resolution (in pixels) and file format/compression for SHIII? Moreover, do you prefer external or embedded textures?

Originally Posted by Kendras

Mmh, it's a good start, but we need a better model (not just flat faces with a texture for the details).

I always rework heavily free 3D models I find on the web, because they rarely have the vertex resolution and other properties which suit game models. If need be, I can add some more detail to the lighthouse mesh, but we should also keep an eye on file size; adding very complex objects near land is always a bit risky, you know
If you look at the model of the Dune light house, most of its details (such as windows, doors, rivets, ladders on the concrete pedestal, etc.) are just painted on its surface. Well made self-illumination, normal and ambient occlusion maps, together with a good diffuse textures can do miracles and bring new life even to the oddest model

Originally Posted by Kendras

Yes, not bad, the upper part is well modelled. We can also use the RoterSand lighthouse ("LH" to abbreviate) for new models, it's a very pretty LH.

Originally Posted by Kendras

We have to keep in mind that the rock model will probably be used at different locations, so we have to envisage different depths. 40 meters should be good ! In my case, I am on the La Vieille location, in the west of la pointe du Raz. I send you my files in PM.

I am talking about the rocks that the lighthouses are rising from. Those need to be integral part of each model so we can only have one fixed depth for each lighthouse, unless you want to make that kind of lighthouses into sea units. If the latter is the case, I could create a set of rocks of different heights to be placed in a library file, and to be conveniently linked to each lighthouse "unit" through eqp file. This is how we made the concrete pedestals of TWoS coastal defences (in SH5 proper coastal defences don't fire their guns).
The one problems I see, is that making generic rock models to accomodate any kind of lighthouse might be a bit tricky due to them not being totally flat, and even by setting a very heavy mass and a low center of mass, "floating" lighthouses would swing faintly on heavy seas. On the other hand, we would enjoy much more flexibility for customizing the appearance/look of them at various stages of the war (some lighthouses were destroyed during the conflict and some others, including La Vieille as I read, were abandoned/obscured late in the war). This is something we can't do with regular land units

Originally Posted by Kendras

Let's imagine something like that...

I see a reticule but wath is the scale?

Originally Posted by gap

What would be an acceptable texture resolution (in pixels) and file format/compression for SHIII? Moreover, do you prefer external or embedded textures?

I Prefer embedded textures. For the resolution, I think maximum 2000x2000 pixels.

Originally Posted by gap

I always rework heavily free 3D models I find on the web, because they rarely have the vertex resolution and other properties which suit game models. If need be, I can add some more detail to the lighthouse mesh, but we should also keep an eye on file size; adding very complex objects near land is always a bit risky, you know.

Yes, just a little more detailed, but not all the 3D details.

Originally Posted by gap

If you look at the model of the Dune light house, most of its details (such as windows, doors, rivets, ladders on the concrete pedestal, etc.) are just painted on its surface. Well made self-illumination, normal and ambient occlusion maps, together with a good diffuse textures can do miracles and bring new life even to the oddest model

Yes, sure. Look at the model I've sent to you : windows and machicolations are just textured, but it looks good !

Originally Posted by gap

I am talking about the rocks that the lighthouses are rising from. Those need to be integral part of each model so we can only have one fixed depth for each lighthouse,

Yes, me too. As the LH won't be sea or land units, we just have to set "onland=false" in the Locations.cfg files, and the node of the LH will always be at the sea level, whatever the depth is. But I agree that we attach the rock to the LH model. I was just thinking that we could use the same model of rock for several LH, maybe a little reworked and with a different stone texture for more diversity ! But if you want to model a totally different rock for each LH, it's even better !

Originally Posted by gap

unless you want to make that kind of lighthouses into sea units. If the latter is the case, I could create a set of rocks of different heights to be placed in a library file, and to be conveniently linked to each lighthouse "unit" through eqp file.

Not at all.

Originally Posted by gap

On the other hand, we would enjoy much more flexibility for customizing the appearance/look of them at various stages of the war (some lighthouses were destroyed during the conflict and some others, including La Vieille as I read, were abandoned/obscured late in the war). This is something we can't do with regular land units.

Ah, didn't think about that. I don't think it's very important for now.

Originally Posted by gap

I see a reticule but wath is the scale?

Let's work with your imagination ! Under and above water reefs would be excellent ! But not too many ! Remember that we can use a danger buoy to mark the danger !

Something is strange. I tested for Camaret LH (near Brest harbour).

The LH was in the land :



So, I went in Locations.cfg and wrote "OnLand=true". But now, the LH has disappeared !!!! It's strange, because on Helgoland, there is a LH at the top of the cliff, and it's written "OnLand=true" in Locations.cfg ....

I don't understand ....

Hey, I've found a good plan on the net, to help you to model properly the circular LH :

[Tycho]

You want, to model it inside?
This will be waste of computer resources.

Originally Posted by Tycho

You want, to model it inside?

Not at all, it's just for external details and global proportions.

Hello dear gap !


(As your PM box is full, I post my message here)

What are the news ? I hope all is good on your side. I just wanted to know what you decided to do for the lighthouses models and also the rock/reefs ... ? Is it to hard to model them, or have we a chance to reach our great objective ?

All the best ! And Merry Christmas if we don't talk before this time !

[MLF]

Originally Posted by Kendras

Something is strange. I tested for Camaret LH (near Brest harbour).

The LH was in the land :



So, I went in Locations.cfg and wrote "OnLand=true". But now, the LH has disappeared !!!! It's strange, because on Helgoland, there is a LH at the top of the cliff, and it's written "OnLand=true" in Locations.cfg ....

I don't understand ....

Hi Kendras,

I had this problem when modifying lighthouses in SH2, and Sergbuto helped me out. You need to look at Lighthouse.dat in the \data\Terrain\Locations folder. If I remember correctly (very long time ago) there has to be a new node for each lighthouse (???) and you adjust the Translation y value for height above sea-level.

Hope this helps but this is going back to 2006

Who knows where the time goes as Sandy Denny sang so beautifully.

Regards,

MLF

[gap]

Originally Posted by Kendras

Hello dear gap !


(As your PM box is full, I post my message here)

What are the news ? I hope all is good on your side. I just wanted to know what you decided to do for the lighthouses models and also the rock/reefs ... ? Is it to hard to model them, or have we a chance to reach our great objective ?

All the best ! And Merry Christmas if we don't talk before this time !

Hello Kendras

sorry for not getting in touch for a while. I have been carried away by the Phare the la Vielle during the last few days...
For my own pleasure, I have decideded to redo it, but of course I will be my pleasure sharing it with the community along with the Dune leading lights and with any other model I might be working on after it.
The La Vielle light is coming along nicely. I am using the 3dWarehouse model as template, so it shouldn't take too long to me finishing it. What and doing is fixing some wrong proportions, consolidating the meshes for use in game, remapping the UV channel and retexturing the model. I will post some quick renderings in a couple of days, and I hope I will finish it before the next year.

After that I will start working on the other 3D stuff that you asked for

Originally Posted by Kendras

Something is strange. I tested for Camaret LH (near Brest harbour).

The LH was in the land :

...

So, I went in Locations.cfg and wrote "OnLand=true". But now, the LH has disappeared !!!! It's strange, because on Helgoland, there is a LH at the top of the cliff, and it's written "OnLand=true" in Locations.cfg ....

I don't understand ....

Originally Posted by MLF

Hi Kendras,

I had this problem when modifying lighthouses in SH2, and Sergbuto helped me out. You need to look at Lighthouse.dat in the \data\Terrain\Locations folder. If I remember correctly (very long time ago) there has to be a new node for each lighthouse (???) and you adjust the Translation y value for height above sea-level.

Hope this helps but this is going back to 2006.

Regards,

MLF

I should have a close look into that model, but I think MLF is correct. When a terrain object is place on land, the cartesian coordinates of its meshes are used for determining its height relative to the terrain. In other words the meshes of that model need to be moved up so that the base of the lighthouse will have a y coordinate close to 0.

Originally Posted by Kendras

Hey, I've found a good plan on the net, to help you to model properly the circular LH :

Good findings! Phare du Four?

Originally Posted by gap

sorry for not getting in touch for a while. I have been carried away by the Phare the la Vielle during the last few days...

Hey, no problem ! Take all the time you need.

Originally Posted by gap

I will post some quick renderings in a couple of days, and I hope I will finish it before the next year.

Great news !

Originally Posted by gap

Good findings! Phare du Four?

Yeah, exactly !

[gap]

I think the top section of the La Vieille lighthouse is pretty much ready. Those are some quick previews (sorry, no HD renderings):

As you can see, I have added quite a lot of 3D detail, and textures look much better though I probably need to tweak their hue/saturation/luminosity/contrast a bit (the red dominant comes from the picture I extracted the textures from).

Floor level and rocks still to do.

Other than that, I would like to bake an ambient occlusion map for the model. I have tried to mimic one by exploiting the shadows already present in the picture said above, but indeed the 3D feeling would greatly benefit from a proper map. I don't remember who told me that SHIII shaders support either AO or normal maps. If someone could explain to me which controllers need to be used and how to set them, I think that could be a nice addition

Wow, that's really beautiful !

But could we do a bit less detailed LH ? I mean details that allow us to recognize this LH as the La Vieille LH. Thus, we could use this model at different locations. So, I think that we should delete the small devices around the building (red arrows) :



And could you create a transparent glass at the top of the LH ?

Originally Posted by gap

Other than that, I would like to bake an ambient occlusion map for the model.

Yes, but what's that ?

[gap]

Originally Posted by Kendras

Wow, that's really beautiful !

Thank you

Originally Posted by Kendras

But could we do a bit less detailed LH ? I mean details that allow us to recognize this LH as the La Vieille LH. Thus, we could use this model at different locations. So, I think that we should delete the small devices around the building (red arrows) :

I am striving to make the present model as similar to the real thing as I can. I nonetheless had your same thought. All the details that you pointed to, are in separate meshes than the main model, and they are removable with just one click. Once I release the model as La Vieille, it will be easy for me creating another generic light house model based on the previous one.

In general, my idea is having a few basic lighthouse models which can be placed in various locations in game (where real lighthouses are/were to be found during the 40s), and then slowly replacing at least a few of them with realistic representations of real lighthouses. SHIII has not a Real Navigation mod yet, but in SH5 with RN, landmarks can be as important for the calculation of position fixes as they were in real life before the GPS era

Originally Posted by Kendras

And could you create a transparent glass at the top of the LH ?

It is. If you look closely at the detail of the gallery in the picture at the bottom of my previous post, you will be able to see the lantern (a Fresnel lens) through it glasses.
Onestly I didn't put much attenction in fine tuning the material properties in the obj model that I am working on. Anyway how transparent those glasses are going to be in the release (dat) version, is a matter of setting their material properties properly in S3ditor.

Originally Posted by Kendras

Yes, but what's that ?

An ambient occlusion map is a texture featuring prerendered shadows, calculated by some 3D editing programs based on the geometry of an object, and it is meant to represent the shadows that the various parts of the same object would cast on each other under a diffuse light. Simplifying, you can see it as a texture with shadowing, enhancing the perception of 3-dimensionality of a model rendered on a 2D surface.
Usually I overlay AO maps on the diffuse map (the one which is currently referred to as "texture"), but due to the complexity of the current model I had to make its diffuse UV map overlapping, otherwise its textures should have been gigantic. As a consequence, if we want the model to have an AO map I will need to create a secon channel (i.e. a non-overlapping UV projection) that the AO map will be rendered on (due to its topological nature, AO map "baking" doensn't work well with overlapping UV projections). Doing that is relatively easy in SHIV-5, but it is my understanding that this feature is only partly supported in SHIII. The lack of AO maps is why most stock ships look "flat" in SHIII compared to its later reincarnations (besides its models having a lesser number of polygons)

Originally Posted by gap

In general, my idea is having a few basic lighthouse models which can be placed in various locations in game (where real lighthouses are/were to be found during the 40s), and then slowly replacing at least a few of them with realistic representations of real lighthouses. SHIII has not a Real Navigation mod yet, but in SH5 with RN, landmarks can be as important for the calculation of position fixes as they were in real life before the GPS era

I have exactly the same ideas as you !

Originally Posted by gap

Once I release the model as La Vieille, it will be easy for me creating another generic light house model based on the previous one.

Could this generic model be a little different in aspect (3D and texture) ?

Originally Posted by gap

It is. If you look closely at the detail of the gallery in the picture at the bottom of my previous post, you will be able to see the lantern (a Fresnel lens) through it glasses.

Ah, I saw it ! But I though it was a texture ! I didn't dare to ask you to model a Fresnel lens, and that's just great that you've already done it !

Originally Posted by gap

An ambient occlusion map is a texture featuring prerendered shadows, calculated by some 3D editing programs based on the geometry of an object, and it is meant to represent the shadows that the various parts of the same object would cast on each other under a diffuse light. Simplifying, you can see it as a texture with shadowing, enhancing the perception of 3-dimensionality of a model rendered on a 2D surface.
Usually I overlay AO maps on the diffuse map (the one which is currently referred to as "texture"), but due to the complexity of the current model I had to make its diffuse UV map overlapping, otherwise its textures should have been gigantic. As a consequence, if we want the model to have an AO map I will need to create a secon channel (i.e. a non-overlapping UV projection) that the AO map will be rendered on (due to its topological nature, AO map "baking" doensn't work well with overlapping UV projections). Doing that is relatively easy in SHIV-5, but it is my understanding that this feature is only partly supported in SHIII. The lack of AO maps is why most stock ships look "flat" in SHIII compared to its later reincarnations (besides its models having a lesser number of polygons)

Thanks for these explanations ! Really interesting !

I managed to create an icon for the LH which is not so bad looking.