Manual Targeting in TMO different from stock game?

[Rockin Robbins]

Never in the war was there a single incidence of obtaining target speed by timing the ship's length by the wire. The majority of the time the target was misidentified and that technique would have resulted in bizarre numbers anyway.

We have had several very fanciful targeting techniques developed which are not historically justifiable. This is one of them. It is simply gaming the system by using god's eye information not available to real submarine crews.

Razark has it absolutely correct: plotting is the beginning and end of a successful attack. And TMO has nothing to do with it, except that it shows ship positions by a position dot, not a silhouette, has no explanitory text and the attack map is lacking some extraneous information also.

I believe that you are not using the TDC properly. It is crucial that you obtain and enter information in a certain order not specified in the game manual or any manual targeting instructions that I've seen outside of my own.

If you're interested, I could tell you about it, but it's a large post on its own! But when I'm done you will understand why you're doing it wrong, I will prove why order of operations is crucial and you'll be able to visualize the process in a way that will ensure your setup is right every time. It's not enough to memorize a list of things to do. You have to know why each step is in that particular order and understand what each step accomplishes. Without in depth understanding of the process you will miss and never know why.

Oh, mallet, quite the opposite of doing calculations in your head, every operation you can unload from your head and make the TDC or plot do will increase your accuracy. You will want all operations to be self-validating so mistakes are OBVIOUS. Numerical calculations are garbage in/garbage out with no obvious error trapping. They're very bad ways to run a war!

Vector analysis, for instance, beats trigonometry every time!

[razark]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

If you're interested, I could tell you about it, but it's a large post on its own!

I'm curious. I've seen it asserted that there is a certain order, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it laid out, nor the reasoning behind it.

I do know that whatever I've been doing seems to work. I put in the AoB/target course, then speed, and finally the bearing and range, which I'll update as needed. Only after that do I turn on the PK. (But then, I've got a number of mods that might affect data input.)

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Vector analysis, for instance, beats trigonometry every time!

I use vector analysis quite often, and always in S Boats.
One of the first things I do when starting a patrol is go to a quiet area of the map, and draw out a diagram setting up angles and circles I manipulate to solve the problem. I keep meaning to learn the Is-Was.

[Barkerov]

Originally Posted by razark

I'm curious. I've seen it asserted that there is a certain order, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it laid out, nor the reasoning behind it.

I am curious to see RR's post about this as well. I have always thought that the hierarchy of input to the TDC was speed first, AOB second and Range third.

My reasoning is based on the fact that the TDC input has to be done in real time and the ship is always moving. Once I obtain the speed, that wont change unless the target changes course so I want to do that first. If I do it last then I am racing around the screen clicking at the end and that is a perfect breeding ground for mistakes.

That leaves the two things that do change in real time. AOB changes the slowest of the two, especially if you are plotting way ahead of firing time. This is because any angular change between me and the target happens slowly until the target is crossing in front of me.

The range I enter last and once I do, I click the PK as soon as possible because the range constantly changes. Remember that the estimate of range is only valid for a single moment in time because we are looking at a moving target. The real drawback of the TDC is that the stadimeter is rubbish, but that's another story.

[Rockin Robbins]

Okay, I was wanting to know I was talking to interested people and not just pushing my ideas on unreceptive mindsets. It doesn't do any good to do that because all listening is voluntary

Okay, let's first look at what the TDC does when the position keeper is on. What it's really doing is setting up an artificial target. When you shoot, you are not shooting at that ship out there, you are shooting at the TDC's artificial target. You WILL hit the artificial target. But, because it really doesn't exist you don't get booms! That is, unless there is a REAL target occupying the same spot where the artificial target is hit.

Our job is to make the artificial target move at the same speed and course as the real target and be superimposed exactly on top of the real target. Kapeech? Ever thought of it that way?

Well, if you do it aids your visualization of the targeting process and makes your targeting much more intelligent. Let's set up a target and do it all wrong. I'll explain every step of the way.

Target sighted! AoB is set zero, speed zero and range/bearing 0/0. It won't be set that way in the game but you gotta start somewhere. So right now the TDC plots the target right on top of the submarine, but not moving. It's facing north. As the sub moves the target stays right there and the sub moves away from the artificial target, doesn't it?

Let's get a stadimeter reading on this puppy! We find his range at 2000 yards and bearing 90º. The TDC plots the artificial target at that spot in the ocean. It isn't moving, The real target is so it just runs away from the artificial target. We won't hit if we shoot now, will we?

So let's get a speed. A three minute run is 600 yards so he's running 6 knots. We enter that. What happens to our artificial target. NOTHING! It sits there motionless, farther and farther away from the real target at a rate of 200 yards a minute!

Now we'll work out angle on the bow. We connect the two points, extend the track and use the protractor and get an AoB. We enter that in the TDC. What happens? NOTHING!! The artificial target is still sitting there motionless in the position we fixed several minutes ago.

Turn on the PK. NOW finally, the artificial target begins to move in the same direction and at the same speed as the real target. Unfortunately, the artificial target is several hundred yards behind the real one. You're about to waste some torpedoes.

Let's do things right. The very first thing you should do is turn on the position keeper. Why? Because otherwise you'll forget, that's why. Without the PK on, the artificial target won't move, either rightly or wrongly, at all. So turn on the PK first.

Second and third, and these two can be done in any order you want, speed and course/AoB can be entered. Use your radar to get two positions 3 minutes apart. Now you have speed, and that usually is what I'll get entered first. Make sure you press the send traingle button TWICE.

Then extend the track on the nav map out in front of the target for a distance that you won't have to fiddle with later. Now what's happening right now is you have an artificial target that is moving at the correct speed, but in the wrong direction and at the wrong position. That's what we want.

Enter the AoB determined by your protractor into the TDC and press send twice. Yes, I'm afraid that's necessary. So now we have an artificial target moving at the right speed and course, but not in the right position.

Can you see why we absolutely HAVE TO do the range/bearing last? It's because the artificial target is ALREADY MOVING at the correct speed and course. As soon as we peg the position, it will immediately begin moving at that speed and course JUST LIKE THE REAL TARGET. Therefore your artificial target, which your torpedoes WILL HIT is and will stay exactly on top of the real target.

If you want to be really fussy and verify your solution is good, go to the attack map and read the torpedo run time. Suppose it's one minute. If your artificial target, plotted on the attack map (!), stays on top of the real target for one minute you have sufficient accuracy to shoot. This is exactly analogous to the check that was done every time submarines shot a several thousand dollar torpedo in the war. They didn't just enter the numbers, trust they made no errors and shoot. If they didn't verify, they didn't shoot. That's why the attack map is an essential part of realistic targeting.

Now after your check the artificial target is no longer on top of the real target. Fix that by doing another stadimeter shot, which fixes the position of the artificial target back on top of the real one.

You're ready to shoot and you'll get booms, I guarantee it! And now you can visualize what is happening as you enter those numbers. They aren't meaningless digits any more. Each one of them now means something to you. Something important. Something you can visualize clearly. You're a sub commander now.

[Barkerov]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Okay, let's first look at what the TDC does when the position keeper is on. What it's really doing is setting up an artificial target. When you shoot, you are not shooting at that ship out there, you are shooting at the TDC's artificial target. You WILL hit the artificial target. But, because it really doesn't exist you don't get booms! That is, unless there is a REAL target occupying the same spot where the artificial target is hit.

Our job is to make the artificial target move at the same speed and course as the real target and be superimposed exactly on top of the real target. Kapeech? Ever thought of it that way?

This artificial target vs real target way of thinking is exactly how I think of it. It becomes painfully clear that this is the way it should be thought of when you look at the attack map. It's best feature IMO is that it shows you the actual target along with marking the artificial target.

Thanks for that RR. It makes total sense to me to start the PK right off the bat. Also Razark nailed it with how he does the AOB. Just match it up to the target course. We don't actually give a crap about what the AOB is in and of itself, that was just the way target course information happens to be fed into the TDC.

Time to go out there and
SINK EM ALL

[razark]

Originally Posted by Barkerov

We don't actually give a crap about what the AOB is in and of itself, that was just the way target course information happens to be fed into the TDC.

I've always looked at it the other way. AoB is important, because it's one of the three angles of the triangle that we are so interested in:
Note that "Target Course" isn't even on this picture.

It doesn't matter what the target course is, unless you figure in your own heading. AoB remains AoB, regardless of which way you're going. It just happens to be easier to get enemy course directly from the map. Well, you could plot everything relative to your boat, say on a maneuvering board, and get the AoB without knowing anything about your own course, I suppose.
Of course, it's all just different ways of looking at the same problem. You can drag out complex math, draw it out on graph paper, solve it on a slide rule, or hand it to the TDC. (And they definitely knew it during the war. You'll find that subs often had a fire control party working independently of the TDC by another method.) As long as you understand that triangle and what it means, you're on the right track.

[Barkerov]

Yeah that's a good point that I was forgetting. AOB has the distinct advantage of being a relative measure. Course is absolute.

[razark]

Originally Posted by razark

I put in the AoB/target course, then speed, and finally the bearing and range, which I'll update as needed.

Wow. I am wrong. I forgot how I do it.

Speed and course are usually known from radar well in advance of visual sighting. Once I am in position ahead of the target and he's in visual range, I start entering the data. First, get bearing. Range doesn't matter at this point (and the stadiameter is crap at long range, anyway), I think I usually just run it up to maximum. Send that to the TDC. Then I get the AoB, which isn't actually AoB. I enter it by watching the target course dial. Once the course matches, AoB is set. Then enter the speed. After that, turn on the PK, and update range and bearing. Then watch the PK to check the actual target against the artificial one. Adjust target speed as needed, and update range and bearing occasionally.

There's a mod that slightly changes the way data input works. Once you set the AoB, it updates whenever you change bearing. If I have a ship dead ahead (bearing of 0/360), and I set his AoB at 90 degrees starboard, then turn the scope to 300 and send a new bearing to the TDC, the AoB automatically updates to 30 degrees starboard. Send a bearing of 315, and the Aob sets to 45s. Convenient for attacking convoys, where everybody's going the same direction.

There's also this one that updates the dials as you move them, so long as the PK is off. This makes entering the course much easier. It's the reason I don't turn on the PK until later.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Let's do things right. The very first thing you should do is turn on the position keeper. Why? Because otherwise you'll forget, that's why. Without the PK on, the artificial target won't move, either rightly or wrongly, at all. So turn on the PK first.
...
Can you see why we absolutely HAVE TO do the range/bearing last? It's because the artificial target is ALREADY MOVING at the correct speed and course. As soon as we peg the position, it will immediately begin moving at that speed and course JUST LIKE THE REAL TARGET. Therefore your artificial target, which your torpedoes WILL HIT is and will stay exactly on top of the real target.

Basically, it boils down to having the AoB and speed set, and the PK turned on, before you enter your critical bearing and range.

In my procedure, since the scope is locked on target, the bearing is spot on and the angles work out for entering the course. Quite often, I don't have the artificial target on top of the real target until quite late in the attack. I just watch it relative to the target to make sure speed and course are good. Once I'm into the final phase of the attack, I make sure I've got the range correct. Soon after, it's time for a shooting observation and a final bearing/range update and fire.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Make sure you press the send traingle button TWICE.

Yes. Every time. It quickly becomes a habit. It's a minor annoyance, but quite important.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

And now you can visualize what is happening as you enter those numbers. They aren't meaningless digits any more. Each one of them now means something to you.

Indeed. Understanding what the numbers mean and how they relate to the targeting problem is vital to putting holes in marus on a regular basis.

Don't quit in a rage, try the Ctrl-N cheat to immediately change the weather!!

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by jldjs

Don't quit in a rage, try the Ctrl-N cheat to immediately change the weather!!

Did not know that one... Thanks

Seriously, though, to me, the weather model in this game is the only thing seriously flawed enough to ruin the gameplay. I'm hoping that's one of the things addressed in Webster/Rockin Robbins new mod.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Did not know that one... Thanks

Seriously, though, to me, the weather model in this game is the only thing seriously flawed enough to ruin the gameplay. I'm hoping that's one of the things addressed in Webster/Rockin Robbins new mod.

You know, that one wasn't even on the radar. But now it is!

Yes, people have asked "if the US submarine TDC was so all-fired sophisticated compared to the German one, why didn't they sink a lot more ships!"

Complexity results in errors. Sometimes complexity results in unquantifiable errors that can't be mitigated. The real Achilles Heel of the stadimeter measurement of range/bearing (yes, in the game, both are always sent together to the TDC when you press send) is that it absolutely depends on correct identification of the target. Most targets in the real war were identified WRONGLY. That will result in an error that can't be predicted or quanified. The secondary problem of the stadimeter is the difficulty of judging exactly where the tip of the mast is, or exactly where in that thick line is the waterline. A one-click error can be a significant number of yards. When combined, these two error sources are a barrel of laughs.

The Germans, and us if we use a constant bearing technique like the Dick O'Kane method, didn't give a rat's patootie about identifying a target except maybe for bragging purposes in the bar between cruises. Range didn't matter much to them because their targeting method only cared about the angle between target track and submarine course and the speed of the target. Get those two somewhere close, close the range to 600 meters and the target goes down.

Simplicity is the simplest way to eliminate error. Every step you can eliminate. Every calculation, every measurement you do not need to make adds to the accuracy of your shooting.

[Mallet]

Can i ask why range doesn't factor in the Dick o'kane method? Kind of confuses me how you could pick any range and the torpedo wouldn't just turn way left to catch a target 10000 yards away versus 1000.

[Rockin Robbins]

When your gyro angle is near zero (angles less than 20 degrees were called "straight shooting" by American manuals) then the lead angle does not change for a target traveling at the same speed on the same course regardless of range. That really sounds opaque and is hard to understand. Try this:



Now you can see that all you need to know is the shoot bearing. Sight down that bearing and when juicy parts of the target present themselves you pull the trigger. Each shot is aimed as a specific spot on the target. It doesn't matter what the range to the target is--you will hit your spot if the target speed and your angle to the track are correct. And that, gentlemen, is what made German U-boats and a select few American sub skippers including Dick O'Kane, so deadly. Simplify! Then simplify more.

Target identification? Who needs it! Stadimeter? What in blue blazes is that doing on my boat? Toss 'em out and lets sink some targets!

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Mallet

Can i ask why range doesn't factor in the Dick o'kane method? Kind of confuses me how you could pick any range and the torpedo wouldn't just turn way left to catch a target 10000 yards away versus 1000.

edit> RR beat me to it, LOL His small video is a great "perfect" situation example and gets the point across quite elegantly, however, in the real world the torpedo wakes of the first couple of torpedo(s) will most likely be seen traversing in front of the closest targets (unless of course you are using wakeless electric torpedos, gotta love those). That's one of the reasons I prefer the angular standoff shot... less chance of the wake being observed by the closer ships.

Just to clarify, in his (RR's) Dick O'Kane video he accomplishes the straight shot (zero gyro angle) by backing the TDC range setting down against the minimum range stop point.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, where multiple ships are concerned you must make several deals with the devil to shoot several. The further away from 90 degrees from the track you get, the smaller chance for a hit and the less error tolerant the solution becomes. Furthermore, if you shoot from ahead of the track the ships are more apt to see the oncoming torpedoes and only need to turn a fraction of a right angle to turn into the oncoming torpedoes and make them miss.

Of course you can sit 90 degrees to the track and use Mark 18s--too slow and THAT reduces your chance of hits while keeping them from seeing the wake.

Dick O'Kane, and I agree totally, said that we get darned close, target ONE target at a time and put her on the bottom. Again, simplifying the process gives maximum success. Return and target another. Repeat until the escorts split for home because they have no merchies to herd.

Yes I've seen fancy videos of multiple ship targeting and they look cool. But in practice you'll come up empty more than bag two or three. One premature explosion with six torpedoes in the water targeting three ships and all three ships go crazy and you waste a great portion of Uncle Sam's money.

Dick O'Kane said that when you have to schlepp back 6000 miles for a torpedo refill you aim every shot and keep it simple. Limit the fancy stuff!