The Marriage of Microsoft and Linux

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Holy crap Ashikaga! It's a hassle to start up your machine, Update starts automatically, says "you have xx operating system updates and xx program updates" and you have a proceed button. When you push it, not only the operating sytem BUT EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM ON YOUR MACHINE is updated in the background while you proceed with whatever you want to do. Where's the "hassle?" Finding the freaking proceed button?

Adding programs. You have a single repository where just about every Linux program is vetted, certified virus free and completely updated. Start up one of many package managers, my favorite is Synaptic Package Manager, and you can find anything from the same place. And you are not restricted to repositories. If you want to download programs the risky Windows way by going to a website you are able to do that too.


Especially the easy way that Linux updates both operating system and every program on your machine with a single button push ("too much hassle!!!") is so far ahead of Windows that statements about too much hassle are ludicrous.

When I try to install the RPMforge repository

rpm -Uvh http://pkgs.repoforge.org/rpmforge-release/rpmforge-release-0.5.3-1.el6.rf.x86_64.rpm

I am getting this error

curl: (7) couldn't connect to host
error: skipping http://pkgs.repoforge.org/rpmforge-release/rpmforge-release-0.5.3-1.el6.rf.x86_64.rpm - transfer failed

What do I need to do, Steve?

[Skybird]

Neal, best way for you is to find the dominating English Linux Mint forum and community website, and ask there. Do not be shy to ask in the Newbie section. If it is like with the main German Mint forum website, then you will be given good advise and the needed spells to cure your curse.

The major German website would be: http://www.linuxmintusers.de/

For English it cold be this one: https://forums.linuxmint.com/

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, thanks

[Skybird]

It's proven advise - I need to make more use of that forum myself than I like.

[GT182]

I wonder if MS doing what they're doing is the cause from most gaming going to Steam. Steam isn't all that bad, but I'd rather install a game or sim and play it from my computer only. With Steam there are some games that you can't add updates, plug-in managers, other game improvements. You play on their terms not yours.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

When I try to install the RPMforge repository

rpm -Uvh http://pkgs.repoforge.org/rpmforge-release/rpmforge-release-0.5.3-1.el6.rf.x86_64.rpm

I am getting this error

curl: (7) couldn't connect to host
error: skipping http://pkgs.repoforge.org/rpmforge-release/rpmforge-release-0.5.3-1.el6.rf.x86_64.rpm - transfer failed

What do I need to do, Steve?

Hey Neal, I missed your post! Sorry.

Looks like you're using a Red Hat derivative like Fedora. I'm not an expert on that. Ubuntu has all that preinstalled and you just run it. Actually, it runs itself on startup and offers to update everything on your machine. Commander Wallace is our Fedora expert.

Once FOTRS Ultimate Edition has left the nest and we're just working on plugins, I look forward to doing a thread with Commander Wallace and others on a "Get acquainted with Linux" thread.

Seems like there should be a way to use the GUI, but one of the reasons I'm not using Fedora is that they're still stuck on the computer geek position that if you can't use the command line you don't deserve to use Linux. Ubuntu is much more GUI oriented. You CAN use the terminal but almost always have the opportunity to use a GUI solution.

To be fair, there is much in Windows that you must use a command window to accomplish. Even something so simple as copying a directory tree that has 10 layers and a couple hundred files can be copied three to ten times quicker in the command window using xcopy than it can in Windows Explorer, which totally chokes on the job.

Commander Wallace is your Fedora expert. When you see .rpm repository, that means a Red Hat derivative Linux distribution. I personally wouldn't recommend that for a person fresh from Windows. But that could be just because I'm not too familiar with it.

[Onkel Neal]

I think in the end I decided that repoforge was down, not responding. I tried several times to access the links via Windows just to see if I could d/l the file to no avail. I went another way with the Linux install and it worked.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

... Actually, it runs itself on startup and offers to update everything on your machine. Commander Wallace is our Fedora expert.


Seems like there should be a way to use the GUI, but one of the reasons I'm not using Fedora is that they're still stuck on the computer geek position that if you can't use the command line you don't deserve to use Linux.
...

There is an update program in Fedora (KDE has "Apper") which uses the GUI to update everything... and I mean EVERYTHING. (which is currently in my taskbar showing me that I have updates... nope, all my Windows & Linux games (except 2) work at the moment, I want to keep it that way!)

It will update all the programs unless you specifically de-select an option.

Using the "Geeky Elitest" command line terminal (that only "deserving" Linux users know how to use ) you can use "dnf" (formerly yum) and update everything EXCEPT whatever you added to the "exclude" list in the config file.
(Sorry RR, but you give me so much "ammo" I can't resist!)


I've had Fedora on older HDDs, or dual booted since Fedora Core 3.
I've used too many different OSs and modded too many games, and coded way too much to be slowed down by a GUI.
However until I figured out all the changes, I did use the GUI interface for settings for the first several months when I switched over to using exclusively Linux. When in unfamiliar territory, having a "map" is very helpful. I don't fault anyone for using a GUI, but some times, I want the PC to do something specific.


But I used DOS first. I am VERY comfortable with a Command Line Interface.
For me a .txt config file is preferred because I can "search", then "edit" then save and go about my buisiness. Messing with a GUI that someone wants to change every 2 versions is more time than it is worth, FOR ME. (EXAMPLE: Windows, every other version thereof.)


I tried Ubuntu, but Unity REALLY didn't 'jive' with me. I REALLY HATE a full screen menu (see: android, Ios, WIndows 8/8.1/10), which I think KDE had in Fedora 16. (not sure which KDE version it was.)
(I liked GNOME's simple interface (circa Redhat9) way back when, but I could NEVER find the "config" in the menu, KDE it was there. So I switched.)

Fedora is not perfect, but it does flow well with me, since I like to set up EVERYTHING the way I want it.
There are some things that I have to change, but mostly I'm setting it up each time I install a new version, but it does keep me using the commands, and remembering where things are, and how they work, etc.

Barracuda

P.S. I forgot to mention this but, LINUX is the Kernel, it is the "Command Line". The GUI is built on top of that, so unless the 'Desktop' has gone through and made a Graphical interface for each and every program running on Linux, then some things will REQUIRE the use of the CL. Depending on how they interface with the desktop and program, they might not work with all desktops. I've had it happen before.
(Now I am running "Gnome Disk Utility" in KDE, and it works. But I've had several different versions of Fedora and a few other Distros, like, Knoppix, that the desktops were in a "transitional" phase, so using some programs designed for GNOME, etc, in KDE, didn't want to work.)

P.P.S. This had nothing to do with the OP, or M$.... hmm. I must be getting easily distractable... oh look! a squirel!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

P.S. I forgot to mention this but, LINUX is the Kernel, it is the "Command Line". The GUI is built on top of that, so unless the 'Desktop' has gone through and made a Graphical interface for each and every program running on Linux, then some things will REQUIRE the use of the CL. Depending on how they interface with the desktop and program, they might not work with all desktops. I've had it happen before.
(Now I am running "Gnome Disk Utility" in KDE, and it works. But I've had several different versions of Fedora and a few other Distros, like, Knoppix, that the desktops were in a "transitional" phase, so using some programs designed for GNOME, etc, in KDE, didn't want to work.)

P.P.S. This had nothing to do with the OP, or M$.... hmm. I must be getting easily distractable... oh look! a squirel!

And that is where Windows went wrong. Having the command line as a base meant first of all that the command line would be healthy and robust, unlike the shriveled remains of DOS still barely breathing in the Windows Command Window. The Linux terminal is the Holy Temple of Linux, the place from which all blessings flow, the ultimate storehouse of the power that is within the operating system.

That means that you can choose your GUI. It means you can choose your file manager. It means you can choose your browser without restriction. It means a lot more freedom and a lot more possibilities for getting things done. It means that the difference between Fedora and Ubuntu is totally unimportant, as it's possible to install all the programs that make Ubuntu Ubuntu into Fedora and versa vica.

It's the reason Unity is a decent GUI now. People who didn't like it could change to something else in sixty seconds. And they could go back in 60 seconds. I have Unity, Lubuntu, LXDE, OpenBox, KDE Plasma, MATE, GNOME and others all able to be switched to in much less than a minute. Lately Ive kind of settled on Unity. It's come a vast distance since it was so terrible. Why? With the others to take up the slack, it took the pressure off Unity. They were free to innovate.

When Windows sucks (and it does) there are no alternatives but live with it or leave Windows entirely. That will never be the case with Linux.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

... I have Unity, Lubuntu, LXDE, OpenBox, KDE Plasma, MATE, GNOME and others all able to be switched to in much less than a minute.

I used to keep 2 or 3 installed, but now...

I'm currently running FGLRX video drivers so that Crossfire will work.
Unfortunately, FGLRX was configured to set-up for the primary Desktop, and it wasn't too friendly with some of them.

Until the AMDGPU kernel-side driver gets settled and the AMDGPU-PRO driver get released for Redhat/Fedora, I'm going to stick with just KDE for now.

Ohh, and so my post can be more or less on topic...

Did you know that there is a DRM in Linux?
It's the Direct Rendering Manager:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Manager

https://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/DRM/

3 little letters can mean so many different things...

Of course if you ask me this question in a week and I'm not looking at my PC, I'll probably won't remember what it is. As I know I've looked it up at least 3 times in the last 2 years.

Barracuda

[Skybird]

I just would wish that after two decades any Linux GUI finally would decide to go all the way instead of stoppig halfway, turn to the side and disappear between the bushes and trees, leaving the ordinary user behind and alone.

Cinnamon/Mint is probably the most advanced GUI for Linux - but even this can have you ending up with a need to face Terminal quite easily.

And if you are no holy priest, you do not find the entrance to this "temple" then. You end up pöaste-andcopying magicla spoeels you get form others without you knowing what you are doing there, and why. And you can end up in even deeper trouble that way.

This way, every user who was just a user under Windows, again needs to bcome a professional insider like 30 years ago. This expectation is unrealistic. In business. Amongst most gamers. In private households.

I think this is the one most dominant reason that will prevent Linux for another 20 years to keep up with Windows, Android, iOS. I mean since 20 years I get told how great Linux is and that it is about to take over. But the market share it has with users still is clearly below the 2% mark.

Instead of always breaking loose another fork and an other variation, developers should really consider to sit together and work on going all the way. It would be a first under Linux. But as long as Terminal - or however the CLI is called in different Linux derivates - becomes a necessity to use it so often and easily as it now is the case - and I say that after beign with Linux for almost tne months now - , as long I see no realistic chance that Linux will taske major shares from Windows. Peoiple will or will not turn away from Windiws, due to the W10 mess. But for the most they will not move to Linux. They move towards Android, Chrome and iOS.

Don't get me wrong, I am still with Linux and like it, and recommend to switch Windows PCs to Linux. But i do not ignore the problems that also are there. Its not all rosy in Linux land.

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

...

P.S. I forgot to mention this but, LINUX is the Kernel, it is the "Command Line". The GUI is built on top of that, so unless the 'Desktop' has gone through and made a Graphical interface for each and every program running on Linux, then some things will REQUIRE the use of the CL.
Depending on how they interface with the desktop and program, they might not work with all desktops.
...

Originally Posted by Skybird

I just would wish that after two decades any Linux GUI finally would decide to go all the way instead of stoppig halfway, turn to the side and disappear between the bushes and trees, leaving the ordinary user behind and alone.

Cinnamon/Mint is probably the most advanced GUI for Linux - but even this can have you ending up with a need to face Terminal quite easily.
...

Skybird,

I can sympathize with your feelings on this, however I feel I should bring something to your attention.

In Linux, work is never duplicated. You do not need to re-code something that has already been coded.

Think of it similar to Windows using dotnet, for example.
Let's take S3D as our example program. In order to run S3D, we need to have dotnet 2.0 installed. Why? Because some of the code necessary to allow S3D to do what it does, is contained in dotnet, and this is referenced by S3D.

This allows S3D, and other programs to all access the same "code" and therefore be smaller.
Let's assume we make some new mod tools for the SH series.
We will call them:
Silent Hunter Editor, "SH-E" for Silent Hunter,
SH-E2, for Silent Hunter 2,
and so-on and so forth, so we have SH-E, SH-E2, SH-E3, SH-E4, and lastly, SH-E5.

Now if we assume that the base code is 10MB, and the databases for each game is 10MB, and the graphical interface is 5MB each.

Then each editor comes to 25MB. If we have all 5 installed, then we have 125MB of hard drive space used...

Now if we use a common "base", 10MB, and we use a common graphical interface, which includes all variations, it would be larger, about 7.5MB.

So to RUN, and USE, the editors, we have only used 17.5MB of space on the drive.
Now we have 50MB of database files, 10 for each of the 5 editors.


10MB base files,
7.5MB GUI files,
+50MB database files,
67.5MB total.

So we have just saved 57.5MB of hard drive space by NOT duplicating work.
This is what Linux does from the kernel all the way down to the widgets on your desktop telling you how much RAM you have used.

This is why MANY things in Linux do not have a GUI version. At most it will be a Graphical "front-end" for the non-graphical "back-end" program.

Check the update/install program for your distro, it probably has graphical interfaces for command line programs. Fedora has MANY of them listed. I'm sure Ubuntu/Mint will as well.

One of my biggest complaints with all windows versions, was that for a little bit of "polish" the install size jumped, for example 300MB for Win98, to ~2GB for WinXP.

When you install a new program from the package manager (forget what it is in Cinamon), notice that it tells you what "dependancies" that the program has. And asks for permission to install these.
The 'dependancies' are because the program lacks the data.

Best example I can give is this: I installed a server version of Fedora 24. No GUI, but I needed to keep the RAID 0 intact so I could copy the files to another drive.
so I installed KDE, and then tried to run it.
This FAILED MISERABLY.
Why? Because I forgot to install "X" so KDE has something to actually draw the GUI with.

This is why RR mentioned in one of the threads around here, that in a few seconds he can swap desktops.

"X" takes care of the "how to draw", the desktop takes care of the "what to draw".
No duplicating. Much less "mess".

Barracuda

P.S. As far as the need to be an expert on using Linux... Look at the bright side, learning new things help keep "some-timers" from turning into "old-timers" and eventually "all-timers"!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

When I try to install the RPMforge repository

rpm -Uvh http://pkgs.repoforge.org/rpmforge-release/rpmforge-release-0.5.3-1.el6.rf.x86_64.rpm

I am getting this error

curl: (7) couldn't connect to host
error: skipping http://pkgs.repoforge.org/rpmforge-release/rpmforge-release-0.5.3-1.el6.rf.x86_64.rpm - transfer failed

What do I need to do, Steve?

Let's do a little troubleshooting. Your errors say "couldn't connect to host" and "transfer failed." That could mean several things, but the #1 reason for that is that the web site specified couldn't be found. On your first line the web address starts with "http://pkgs.repoforge.org." Cut and paste that into the address bar of your browser and you'll get "Problem loading page" blah, blah, blah, which means there's no website to be found with that address.

The achilles heel of the terminal is that it is literally literal! Typos are severely punished and every single character must be accurate. It's like typing URLs into your web browser. Nobody does that. Why? Because it's impossible to type "http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2430652" accurately more than two times in ten attempts.

There's something wrong with the web address in your terminal command that prevented you from accessing the site you wanted to reach.

Repoforge hasn't been updated in awhile, but repoforge.org does work. Going to the "Using Repoforge" page you find

Using RepoForge

First download the appropriate rpmforge-release package for your distribution:

• EL 7: x86_64
• EL 6: i686, x86_64
• EL 5: i386, x86_64, ppc
• EL 4: i386, x86_64, ppc
• EL 3: i386, x86_64

Then you can use rpm or yum to install the downloaded package. The package installation will enable the RepoForge repo for subsequent use via yum.
More detailed instructions and recommendations are available on the CentOS wiki.
Hints:

• Use cat /etc/redhat-release to find which release of EL you are using
• Use uname -a to find your processor architecture
• Use rpm -ivh package-filename to install the rpmforge-release package (also works with URLs)
• You can use wget or curl to download the package using one of the above links if needed (for example on a server with no X Window)
• Then you can use yum to install the available packages from the RepoForge repo, e.g. yum install --enablerepo=rpmforge-extras`
• Afterward, you can disable accidental updates from the repo by setting enabled = 0 in the repo definition file in /etc/yum.repos.d/

And I clicked on one of the links. The repositories aren't available! The links are dead.