Military coup in Turkey

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

using the military against a democratic elected President or Prime Minister is not the solution

And is democracy the right tool to establish autocracy and tyrannical dictatorship? Think of what misery the world would have been saved form if the military would have simply killed Hitler - a democratically elected leader, btw.

Erdoghan himself once said that to him democracy is just a train you use to get from your starting point to your destination. Once you have reached your destination, you leave it and leave the train behind.

Official statistics say there are more than 3 million Turks living in Germany. It is more in reality, but okay. More than half of these still have voting rights for Turkish elections. And almost all of them went voting, and amongst the German Turks a greater share voted for Erdoghan, than of the Turkish population in Turkey. - This radicalisation means problems for us in germany, you can imagine.

And when Western politicians like Merkel say that tanks in the street to kick a democratically elected govenrment are "unacceptable", then this is the same kind of nonsense that the West talked when the Egypt military kicked out the democratically elected MB. And in the end, for Merkel and others it is about this: if they do accept coups against failing governments in other states, they in principle have no defence anymore against the people violently rising or the military staging a coup against their own government, too - because our governments' policies are as much failures, as Erdoghans are. Our leaders betray us and lead us into darkness as well. They should have all reason to fear us, the people. But thanks to the life-long indoctrination that "violence is never an option", they must not fear us. Birds of same feather flock together. Mind you, in Brussel there are politicians at work who want to put criticising the EU in a way not authorized by the EU, under penalty. Opposing the EU's self-perception should become a criminal offence. Opposition becomes criminalised that way. But the same people criticise Erdoghan, Hirsi, or autocratic leaders in Eastern european states...? LOL

No, I do not rule out violence always, and under all circumstances. If I would, I would be dead since many years already, gotten killed on two, maybe three incidents. I defend Hirsi's coup in Egypt, and I have no illusion about the level of corruption and cleptocracy his camp is abusing the state for. Erdoghan, democratically elected or not, is as cleptocratic, and his wife is said to be as bad, if not worse.

Violence can be justified, and is a tool like others. Its just that it should not be used easily, and carelessly. And it is like with owning a weapon: its better to be able to project and direct violence against others, but not needing to do so, than needing to do so but finding oneself too unable and too impotent to do so. Better have a weapon and not needing to use it, than to need one but finding you have none. Weakness is no virtue. It just is weakness. It is strength that can be a power for good, it is never weakness. And it is strength that opens chances and generates opportuntiies and increases the degrees of freedom in your decision-making. If you are weak, you reduce these degrees of freedom. Saying you mean it well but being impotent to do something, means nothing. Save your breath.

Maybe the rebels "meant it well". Maybe they saw it as their duty to try to remove Erdoghan from power, like the many who tried to assassinate Hitler. Maybe they knew they would fail, but thought it nevertheless is a demand of soldier's honor to try it anyway. Maybe they were just naive and underestimated the amount of support Erdoghan has. If the latter, they were naive idiots then.

Personally I still think it is more than just conspiracy theory that Erdoghan has created the opportunity for this coup- to smack it down and create himself a card blanche for the aftermath. The blakclists came out too fast, preparations mjust have been done before. At least he was hoping for and waiting for such an opportunity. He called the coup a gift of God, that tells something.

Turkey is no longer a trustworthy ally, and is no friend. Its an enemy in our middle. And it will give us big troubles that sooner or later we can no longer contain. I'm preaching this since over ten years, and since then there has not been a single year that has not proven me right: things became worse and worse and worse. And like with any pressure cooker, it just is a question of time until it explodes into our faces. Hopes for the better, and meaning it well, will not make a smallest difference.