German Lawmakers Approve 'No Means No' Rape Law

[Skybird]

^ Yes.

The Germna law now puts under penalty if a man is "in a group" from which sexual violence" is directed against a victim. Unfortunately this law doe snto define what "in this group" should mean. Do you have to see the rape with your own eyes, or is it enough to stand in close vicitnty to the event, or is it sufficient that you are simply present on the scene of the crime, beign part of a bigger crowd like in Cologne?

It could happen to you that you get charged while you just pass through a crowd, with a group harassment taking place 30m away.

I see a worrying tendency in Germany to reverse the burden of proof to the innocent/suspect, to make it easier for the government body and its service to do their job". Also, there is practically consensus amongst politicians of all parties that in the near future they want to collect all private savings from private people who cannot gaplessly prove that they own that money legally and in conformity with rules of the law - you are assumed to be guilty as long as you have not proven your innocence. Its just another way of fighting the war against cash money, and of course socialist plunderer ideology.

Assumed not guilty as long as guilt has not been proven had become a fundamental pillar of law and order in the West not for no reason.

I find this all very worrying.

I am also pissed that, like on past football events 2 and 4 years ago, highly dubious and controversial law projects get whipped through parliament in sprinting mode while the public is distracted and the German team prepares to play.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

^ Yes.

The Germna law now puts under penalty if a man is "in a group" from which sexual violence" is directed against a victim. Unfortunately this law doe snto define what "in this group" should mean. Do you have to see the rape with your own eyes, or is it enough to stand in close vicitnty to the event, or is it sufficient that you are simply present on the scene of the crime, beign part of a bigger crowd like in Cologne?

So, basically a whole group of society, in this case men, should not be blamed for the actions of a minority of that same group?

[Skybird]

^ 1100 charges of rape and sexual harassment filed.

[Jimbuna]

Really people, rape in either form, female or male is a seriously terrible crime. Trust me (or please yourselves) I know from some serious real life involvement/experience.

Anything that lessens the possibility of such a crime should be embraced (no pun intended).

[Catfish]

Of course this is generally a good idea. But some might refer to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_(film)

If a woman accuses a man of sexual harassment, and the man denies, and there are no witnesses, who do you believe?

There was a case, where a woman i know personally accused a man harassing her, so she called in the police and we were all asked if we saw anything. We had not, but that of course did not mean it had not happened. But he was losing his job and his friends. Until some years later, she admitted she had made it up because said man was not interested in her, and she wanted "revenge".
Just saying that men being as they are, a helpless and disgraced and maybe weeping woman will always wake the protector's instinct, against the accused. Even if she made it all up.

Evidence matters.

[Jimbuna]

In a situation where there is no evidence of any kind or witnesses to the alleged event then leave it up to the relevant department (in the UK it is the Crown Prosecution Service) to decide if there is any realistic outcome of a successful prosecution as well as the law courts/jury.

That is the situation in the UK anyway.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

In a situation where there is no evidence of any kind or witnesses to the alleged event then leave it up to the relevant department (in the UK it is the Crown Prosecution Service) to decide if there is any realistic outcome of a successful prosecution as well as the law courts/jury.

That is the situation in the UK anyway.

Your analysis sums up the newly enacted legislation in Germany concisely. Your background in law enforcement gives this issue a better perspective.

If there is physical evidence which ties an individual to the crime we are discussing here, then it's likely that individual will be prosecuted. DNA analysis in various forms is no longer in it's infancy and is widely accepted in prosecutorial court proceedings due to it's near certainty. There are also eyewitness accounts which although useful, can be discredited in court. DNA evidence is almost iron clad.

DNA evidence has also been used to exonerate people wrongly tried and convicted for various crimes.

For this reason, I don't think people have much to worry about with regards to being in the general area where a crime took place if they weren't involved in the crime itself.

I think most people would intervene on the side of the victim if a woman was being attacked in that manner or physically assaulted to help them.
I'm sure this newly enacted law will be tweaked as the need arises if there are problems or issues.


Something else to consider is any law, rule or regulation is only as good as the enforcement behind it.

[Commander Wallace]

Leaked document says 2,000 men allegedly assaulted 1,200 German women on New Year’s Eve

" Quote "

Lawmakers were facing intense pressure to pass the new legislation, particularly in the wake of the Cologne assaults. Most of the perpetrators in that city stand accused of groping and facilitating sex assaults as part of a group — accusations that were difficult to prosecute.
The stricter law is also supposed to make it easier for refugees to be deported if they are convicted in sex-assault cases — an aspect of the new law that activists and advocates for refugees have harshly criticized.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...new-years-eve/

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Evidence matters.

Absolutely, however the case should be taken seriously and investigated and then dismissed for lack of evidence. That's the key differencial between now and the past, where a policeman would oft automatically assume the burden of guilt upon the woman and dismiss the case out of hand. Ironically, it's gone a bit the other way now, because of the machismo of men if a man is raped by a woman he will find himself being asked what the problem was, especially if the woman was attractive in the eyes of the officer. Men are automatically assumed to be willing participants in sexual intercourse.
Still, evidence should be key alongside witness and victim/perpetrator testimony, no doubt about that at all. Rape kits should be something that are made more available so a victim of rape can get evidence gathered in the immediate aftermath of the assault.

Of course, sexual harrassment is a lot harder to prove and gather evidence for, that's a much trickier subject, and in that case I think education and defence might be a better thing to help, but also in the future if things like Google Glass ever catch on then evidence will be a bit easier to gather.

I must admit though, I do find it ironic though about the complaints that people feel that all men are being found guilty until proven innocent because they are the same gender group as the most common perpetrators of rape. Can anyone think of other instances where a wide group of people have been blamed universally and acted against because of the actions of a smaller sub-group within that group?