Libyan ace Al-Obedi killed in Benghazi

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Could also be a 27 which is the ground attack version of the 23.

Because the MiG 23 and 27 share the same basic airframe and as you said, the MiG 27 is the ground attack version of the MiG 23, you are right, except the MiG 27 has a " Platapus nose " the MiG 23 nose is more stream lined. The picture Oberon posted looks like it has a stream lined nose but it's hard to tell since the aircraft nose profile is not visible in it's entirety.

[Dowly]

AFAIK, ground kills were not counted, unless you were someone like Rudel (who, IIRC, was called an ace in terms of ground kills, but not an actual 'ace')

As such, he is no 'ace', but sorry to hear of his loss nevertheless.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Dowly

AFAIK, ground kills were not counted, unless you were someone like Rudel (who, IIRC, was called an ace in terms of ground kills, but not an actual 'ace')

As such, he is no 'ace', but sorry to hear of his loss nevertheless.

I think Rudel got 7 air kills too so was also a proper Ace.

[Von Due]

War is a strange business and during WW2 there were commanders who accepted ground kills as counting for ace status. Whether the top brass knew or not is another story entirely. Another issue is overclaiming which happened in all involved airforces during that war. Nowadays one would perhaps think it's harder to overclaim, what with all the electronic eyes watching but who knows what can happen when things get a bit out of hand.

(On a total sidenote: The WW2 German Jg 27, while stationed in North Africa were accused of overclaiming by those in the unit who didn't get their iron crosses. It died out with no real action taken except for the alleged masterminds, but it's a curious story what happened to one of their pilots. A genuine ace he faced the possibility of being stripped of his victories with the rest. He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side.)

Anyway, that was somewhat off topic.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

Yeah, it is a 23ML, Libya doesn't have any 27s, and now they only have one 23.

Originally Posted by Von Due

(On a total sidenote: The WW2 German Jg 27, while stationed in North Africa were accused of overclaiming by those in the unit who didn't get their iron crosses. It died out with no real action taken except for the alleged masterminds, but it's a curious story what happened to one of their pilots. A genuine ace he faced the possibility of being stripped of his victories with the rest. He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side.)

Anyway, that was somewhat off topic.

Ah yes, 27, that was Marseilles unit wasn't it? Good chap, and not a bad pilot either despite his Lolwaffle tendancies with landings...

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ah yes, 27, that was Marseilles unit wasn't it? Good chap, and not a bad pilot either despite his Lolwaffle tendancies with landings...

Indeed it was. The Eternal Headache of his superiors who didn't watch him fly. Good thing for him Berlin didn't seem to know their Star of Africa was a loose cannon with a taste for women and jazz music. No military marches on his gramophone player Could very well be he saw himself a jazz plane lander as well.

[Catfish]

^

Saw it first at the age of 14 or so, even then was not exactly blown away by some trickfilm scenes..

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Von Due

[...] He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side. [...]

Wasn't "A higher call" about Stigler and Brown? Who was the german pilot who crashed his plane into the sea?
Even more OT: Regarding Stigler and the B17, I read in Deighton's "Fighters" that it happened several times, that some german pilots accompanied damaged british fighters home, which, as they said, "would never have been possible in Russia" (all WW2).

P.S. "Fighters" and "Bombers" (both by Len Deighton) are two real good books about the Battle of Britain (which wasn't one) and the bomber swarms and their interceptors. "Fighters" is a history book concentrating on the machines, "Bombers" is fictional and a novel, but footing in reality using changed names and describing real incidents.

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Wasn't "A higher call" about Stigler and Brown? Who was the german pilot who crashed his plane into the sea?

The book is mostly about Stigler and Brown but "mostly mostly" about Stigler. It is also about the war in general, and other individuals, like people Stigler came across. His fellow pilots, his officers, his family. As for the name, I would need to dig up the book, and look it up.

Even more OT: Regarding Stigler and the B17, I read in Deighton's "Fighters" that it happened several times, that some german pilots accompanied damaged british fighters home, which, as they said, "would never have been possible in Russia" (all WW2).

I'm not too surprised really. The story we were told through the media, through hollywood movies, through veterans who were somewhere else entirely, those stories you can find in wartime propaganda. This is true for all sides involved. The real story of the individuals who fought is another story entirely. The German and British pilots had the same job, they knew what the other guy was going through.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I read in Deighton's "Fighters" that it happened several times, that some german pilots accompanied damaged british fighters home, which, as they said, "would never have been possible in Russia" (all WW2).

This is true, and I believe it happened on both sides too, I recall hearing of an incident during the BOB when Galland came across a student learning in a Tiger Moth, rather than take the easy kill he came alongside, waggled his wings and then flew off.
It was quite a different war, the war in the west compared to the war in the east, both sides treated the other as equals and had measured respect for each other. Although, sadly, like in all wars, there were some who had no respect:

[Catfish]

^ Never heard of that, only from "Taffy" Jones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ira_Thomas_Jones

"My habit of attacking Huns dangling from their parachutes led to many arguments in the mess. Some officers, of the Eton and Sandhurst type, thought it was 'unsportsmanlike' to do it. Never having been to a public school, I was unhampered by such considerations of form. I just pointed out that there was a bloody war on, and that I intended to avenge my pals."
Seems it was in WW1 though (?), Jones only flew for a very short time during the BoB.

There was some discussion whether it was allowed to shoot at bailed-out pilots with parachutes over enemy territory, when the pilot would live to fight another day, but after all you seldom hear of that.


Sry, thread derailed..

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

Because the MiG 23 and 27 share the same basic airframe and as you said, the MiG 27 is the ground attack version of the MiG 23, you are right, except the MiG 27 has a " Platapus nose " the MiG 23 nose is more stream lined. The picture Oberon posted looks like it has a stream lined nose but it's hard to tell since the aircraft nose profile is not visible in it's entirety.

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

I thought as much. I figured someone knowledgeable about aircraft like you, Schroeder or others in the forum would figure it out and correctly Identify the aircraft. I didn't know about the variable intake ramps missing on the MiG 27 though. I know they are there for aiding in compression at supersonic speeds.

I'm guessing they were not needed on a dedicated attack aircraft like the MiG 27 flying subsonic attack missions ?

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

I'm guessing they were not needed on a dedicated attack aircraft like the MiG 27 flying subsonic attack missions ?

That is my understanding of it, yes.