Brexit ?

[Oberon]

Quite, and since it seems that immigration was at least 50% of the reason of being behind the Leave campaign, it does rather beg the question...how are they going to spin that?

Meanwhile the knock-on effects continue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b08d2c56396075



https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash


Sad times.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by BL!TZKR!EG

...So when official documents say so, why is it that mass-media once again spreads false information as if it were the end of the entire world? Why the whining about "oooh, the future of my children is ruined" and all such? And the above is only ONE option.
Help me understand that, please!

First it is of course not the end of the world, but it may be the end of the UK economy for decades to come (bad enough), and may well lead to the end of the EU, which imho would be - despite all problems like bureaucray, corruption and so forth - a tragedy.

Spreading false information? You can find all kind of information on the web, pro and contra. In fact nobody can know what happens, this is a first.
And, b.t.w., for the media bad news is good news.

What especially younger people feel (dumb enough of the UK youngsters not to go voting) is pretty good expressed here:

1. It was the elders and working classes who voted for the UK to leave because they were economically disregarded, and let themselves lure into the trap by populist leaders like Nigel Farage promising them more money and playing their fear with his anti-immigrants slogans.

But it is the same working classes who will suffer the most in short terms from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. No one can believe that, with the EU being out of influence, the workers rights and conditions will take a turn for the better side. If you think so look at the UK in the 1950ies to 1970ies, and the Thatcher "era" [sic!].

Also prices will rise, and there will be no levelling influence possible from the EU. To rebuild a british eceonomy that is not based on banks and making money out of nothing (which they did voluntarily, and willing, instead of pushing production) will take very very long, and it is by no way secure whether it will work out. I believe the british are clever and intelligent enough for all kinds of scientific research and inventions, but to compete against the whole world including China, Japan, South Korea and last not least the part of Europe they left, will need a better education alone in the UK, will be arduous and take time.

2. The younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. As they say "We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences (also job-wise) they will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by their parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of their predecessors".

But the main problem is education and sciences. While Uk studenst were free up to now to work, study and live wherevere they wanted in the EU, this will now be anything but simple. And it will only be possible for rich families, which was not the case as long as the EU guaranteed their ability to study.
They call the EU "socialist", but this is not true. It is just that they cared for human rights in a way never achieved before.

Demagogues like Farage said "the British people are sick of experts", and maybe he was right. But when was the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has been good for a country, and lead to anything other than bigotry?
Why didn't they do what they think is better, in the EU, influencing it?
It was possible, but no one over there was interested. They always bashed the "Eurocrats" but did nothing to better the situation, which they could have. The EU is as same as guilty, but the EU cannot be better than the nations that represent the EU. Juncker is the head, but he has no power at all.
It seems good old nationalism and demagogues like Farage influence the masses much easier, than common sense, and thinking for yourself.

Sad.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I have mixed feelings of youth complaints. I understand their feelings and sort of feel sorry for them but at the same time it is hard to find much compassion for them. In referendum only way to voice your opinion is to vote and apprently majority of youngsters failed to do so. Whining about older people's voting is pointless.

That petition for revote with favourable conditions is extremely undemocratic action. I agree - outcome is bad - but it is still outcome achived by democratic means.

[Skybird]

I say aagin, 2 out of 3 of the young did not even care to vote.

And while I said earlier that i am for free travel, by that I mean just that states may allow you to travel through the country - migration and residency and labour I do not mean by that - the people of a place must have any right todecide over every single case whether they accept somebody or not, else it is no longer their place and we end with that Swedish politician who said that the Swedes now have no more right over Sweden, but that Sweden shall belong to those who newly arrive.

There is no such thing like a human right for migration. Or for no controls at borders. Such a human right would declare the locals to be the property of the migrants. So i necessarily must have a problem with that.

[Oberon]

I think Nicola Sturgeons tweet summed the current situation up well...in fact, she seems to be the only political leader actually organised at the moment:

PM & Chancellor who proposed #EUref are in hiding, those who campaigned for leave have no plan and the opposition is imploding. Disgraceful.

The Nikkei opens in four hours, should be an indication of how well the markets are going to do on Monday. Perhaps another race to the bottom will bring Osbourne out of hiding.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I say aagin, 2 out of 3 of the young did not even care to vote.

And, what does this mean? Dumb, of course. Now they realize what they missed. But not dumber than what the UK and EU did in the last decades, instead of promoting and improving the system they created.
No interest, no ambition, nothing.

I am not interested of what you say about free travel at all. in Europe like in most regions of the earth where a lot of "nations" (this backwards old farts' justification why to fight against other human beings of another "nation") have to live in close proximity, passports do not make sense. Workers are going anywhere where they are needed, scholars where they think they can learn something, Europe has not had passports until WW1, when its need became obvious - IN WAR TIMES.

In the Uk whoever came into the country, mostly from colonies (lmao) and accepted the rules was automatically a citizen of the commonwealth and allowed to stay and live there. Why suddenly not ? Because of a bunch of idiot terrorists ?

There is no such thing like a human right for migration.

Oh yes there is and it has always been, worldwide, until WW1. Even in the US.

Such a human right would declare the locals to be the property of the migrants. So i necessarily must have a problem with that.

Why am i the "property" of a fugitive whom i grant access, as long as he's being in threat of being shot elsewhere? What kind of word choice is that? "Property"??
Also if Germans decide to die out because they are too dumb to deliver babies, and whover then lives here becomes the majority, why TF not?

[MGR1]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think Nicola Sturgeons tweet summed the current situation up well...in fact, she seems to be the only political leader actually organised at the moment:

Nippy has a point. Like her or not, she has a definite point.

Mike.

[MGR1]

I just had a thought:

Labour imploding - led by a man (currently) who can't control his MP's.

Tories infighting - led by a man (currently) who can't control his MP's.

Brexit Campaign - led by men and has no post Brexit plan and can't control the situation they've helped create.

SNP - led by a woman and has a plan (for Scotland) and can control her MP's and MSP's.

What is it they say about women being more organised than men?

Mike.

[Skybird]

These feudal narcissists in Brussels still have not heard the shots: Juncker today said the consequence of Brexit must be to speed up the enforcing of "European integration", and that it now must be enforced as well that all EU countries not already sharing the Euro desaster have to adopt this fake currency, and immediately.

What egoist, worthless, super-hyper-mega-arrogant, self-convinced dirtbags they are.

And the people? The people let it happen. I will never understand that - and that speaks in my favour.

[eddie]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Quite, and since it seems that immigration was at least 50% of the reason of being behind the Leave campaign, it does rather beg the question...how are they going to spin that?

Meanwhile the knock-on effects continue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b08d2c56396075



https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash


Sad times.

Looks like its getting worse Oberon, going after people from Poland who have been in the UK for quite some time too! Getting right in their faces too, going to be some real trouble soon I bet!


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...8xs?li=BBnb7Kz

[Respenus]

Originally Posted by Skybird

These feudal narcissists in Brussels still have not heard the shots: Juncker today said the consequence of Brexit must be to speed up the enforcing of "European integration", and that it now must be enforced as well that all EU countries not already sharing the Euro desaster have to adopt this fake currency, and immediately.

From what I have reading, Juncker appears to be increasingly sidelined, with calmer voiced winning over. I can hardly see his proposal winning any favours and it would appear that the more level-headed Tusk may actually contribute massively to the resolution of the current conundrum.

Of course, in the end it all depends how much Merkel will push for her vision; parts of the French government and the German SPD are proposing a new convention, during which a new vision for the EU would be established with full participation of the public.

The one silver lining coming from this entire debacle, is that a debate has been reopened on what European integration should actually be like, so maybe a more rational approach to the whole issue may well be established (but I am not holding my breath).

[MGR1]

For anyone who thinks the UK parliament can't override the result of the refendum, think again. It will cause a major crisis, but it can be done, and legally.

The vote is "advisery" under the UK system as the population are not the sovereign power in the UK. Sovereignty lies with Parliament:

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.

Parliamentary sovereignty and the UK constitution

People often refer to the UK having an 'unwritten constitution' but that's not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament - known as statute law.
Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as 'partly written and wholly uncodified'. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)

Developments affecting Parliamentary sovereignty

Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.
They include:

• The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
• The Human Rights Act 1998.
• The UK's entry to the European Union in 1973.
• The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.

These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.

More specifically (from Wikipedia):

It was the view of A. V. Dicey, writing in the early twentieth century, that parliament had "the right to make or unmake any law whatever; and, further, that no person or body is recognised by the law of England as having a right to override or set aside the legislation of Parliament". He refers to "England" but his view held for the other nations of the United Kingdom, with slightly different details.

.......

A group of individuals cannot hold sovereignty, only the institution of parliament.

Mike.

[Torplexed]

A Polish centre in Hammersmith was vandalized today. Seems like Brexit has emboldened the racists, who are out in force. Man, I hate to see this sort of asshattery. I'm sure plenty there do as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36634621

[Oberon]

Aye, that's the definite downside (well, one of them) of this result, it's really emboldened the racists and the xenophobes. I feel very sorry for anyone in this country who 'looks or sounds a bit foreign', they're going to feel very vulnerable in the coming days.

Someone on another forum I frequent made an interesting and amusing point.
Both the Tories and Labour look as though they're going to be going through leadership contests shortly. There's a chance that Hilary Benn will throw his hat in the ring for Labour and get it, and there's also a chance that the General Election might be called as early as November, or thereabouts...

So...come November, both the US and the UK might have a Hilary battling a crazy haired racist buffoon.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by MGR1

It will cause a major crisis

That's a slight understatement. There will be riots if they try that, or at the very least a lot of protests.

One potential wiggle way out is through Nippy. If I were a Remain supporting political leader who found my way into Number 10 I would consider making a quiet deal with Sturgeon that she blocks Article 50 in return for a drip feed of greater devolution and perhaps even a date for a second referendum for independence. That way, the English parliament can blame Sturgeon for the UK staying in the EU and Sturgeon can say that she fought for Scotlands corner, and she also gets bonus goodies down the road.
The big downside is that there will be a massive uprise in anti-Scottish sentiment in the English public...although that would play nicely into Sturgeons hands in encouraging and winning a second independence referendum.